(Ernie)Well, a statue to Mary is not the same thing as bowing at your bedside. The bed is not an idol, but the statue of Mary is.
(Cristoiglesia) I am sorry but I do not know how you can call a statue that represents the blessed mother of God an idol. Such an assumption is in direct opposition to what the Scriptures say about her, her actions and what the Church teaches. The Church has never called or taught that the blessed mother is a god or deity in any way. Such an accusation insults Christ, His Church and His mother although I charitably assume this is not your intent but instead that you are the victim of false teaching.
There are only two reasons I can think of that one would say such a thing and that is that one must be prejudiced to the point that they ignore the witness of the blessed mother of God and the teaching of the Bible through the Church or that they are just ignorant of what constitutes an idol.
I will be charitable about my first assumption and go to the second. It cannot be that all statues and pictures are idols as God ordered the adornment of Solomon’s Temple with statues as well as the ordering of the Ark of the Covenant to be adorned with the Cherubim. Certainly a statue of the blessed mother of God is not an idol in any way.
(Ernie) Second, you said I suggested we shouldn't get the saints to pray for us, and my reference was James 5:14-16, which I didn't type in. We cannot confess our faults to saints who have gone on before us, only those still alive. I know we have a great cloud of witnesses watching our progress, because Hebrews 12:1 says so, but I see no support for asking the saints in heaven to pray for us.
(Cristoiglesia) You make a great error in using the verses of St. James to deny and/or divide the Communion of the Saints (Militant, Suffering and Triumphant) which is also known as the Mystical Body of Christ. This would be an act of also denying the teaching of the Bible about the Church invisible.
We know from Scriptures that those in heaven are alive in Christ. Some might even say that they are more alive than anyone because they have escaped the limitations of time and live in the perpetual present outside of time and of space.
Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.
St Paul asked the other disciples to pray for him in the following:
Rom 15:30 I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God,
Col 4:3 Praying withal for us also, that God may open unto us a door of speech to speak the mystery of Christ (for which also I am bound):
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you: That our God would make you worthy of his vocation and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power:
Certainly the above verses show the veracity of praying for one another and there is no indication from Scriptures that the saints in heaven are somehow cut off from the Church when their flesh dies. Should we not also understand that when the Bible refers to the great cloud of witnesses that included are the saints who have endured in faith and received the promise of which we have hope? Logic should dictate that rather than being cut off they are instead brought closer and are in even greater communion with us.
Let me explain it in even a different way…. Let us look at the metaphor in John 15-1-8:
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine: and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now you are clean, by reason of the word which I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 In this is my Father glorified: that you bring forth very much fruit and become my disciples.
What the verses tell us is of our connection to each other and nowhere in Scriptures does it indicate that this relationship is temporary and depending on our earthly life but instead we see this as a permanent relationship that continues in heaven rather than us being cut off by death.
As the Mystical Body of Christ we all benefit each other by our unity. We share in suffering as well as joy and that continues for all time and beyond.
1Co 12:25 That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.
1Co 12:26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
St. Paul speaks of our unity but also of our different functions and parts even though we are one in devotion:
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another:
The only conclusion one can come to about the Church militant, suffering and triumphant is that we are all still connected in our prayers for each other. And that none of us are cut off from the vine but remain for eternity and beyond in Christ.
(Ernie) Some of our disagreements are trivial, but some are serious; like idolatry.
(Cristoiglesia) The truth is Ernie; we really do not have any disagreement on idolatry because it is a false accusation that we practice it or teach it in any way. I would also question how trivial some things may be. Remember the first schism of the Church since Pentecost occurred in 1054 between the Eastern and Western Church and was over one Greek letter the iota. An example I read was if you started off from New York to England in a ship and your course was off just one degree you would end up in Portugal. So, is anything really trivial?
(Ernie) The blood of Jesus and knowing He is the Son of God is what we both agree on, and I'm sure we agree on many other things. But to say the Catholic church represents the Church, I do not agree, as some of what you teach and believe is contrary to the word. I asked earlier if Catholics baptized babies, a practice the Church did not do.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes we do both agree on Jesus.
The Catholic Church does not just represent the Church; it is the Church and the only Church founded by Jesus and the disciples. No other sect or group qualifies to be called the Church. All people are saved through His Church whether they recognize His Church or not as the Church is the doorway to eternity. One may be saved outside of the visible Church but no one is saved without His Church. If you can find some Scriptural, historical or Patristic evidence that there is another I would like to discuss it but I have been unable to find any other Church founded by Christ. If there was why did He pray that we be one in His Church as He and the Father are one?
So, far you have not been able to find any Catholic teaching that is contrary to the Word of God and you will not because such is an impossibility. If you are correct, all of Christ’s promises of His Church and to humanity would be a lie. Jesus does not lie. You have absolutely no evidence that the Church did not baptize infants but only speculation while Scriptures by implication and historical and Patristic evidence does support infant baptism.
(Ernie) Also, exorcism isn't the same as in the bible. Anyone teaching false doctrine will be held accountable, as Paul stated in Galatians 1:6-9, and I take very seriously what we are sharing.
Exorcism is the same in that nothing practiced or taught by the Church disagrees with Scripture. Scripture is just not the fullness of teaching on this topic as is contained in the apostolic teaching of the Church. You see, this is an example of Scriptures being taught outside the Church instead of where it is intended to be taught and people coming to false conclusions based on incomplete information.
I take my teaching very seriously. That is why I left the Protestant Church for the Catholic Church which is the fullness of truth and practice. I became possessed with a Berean spirit but not only for studying if the teaching of the Catholic Church is right but more so to prove them wrong and false. I was convinced as are you that the Church taught false doctrine but every time I set out in study to prove the Church wrong I was confronted with the fact that the Church taught the truth. My first reaction was anger at my incompetence to complete my mission as I was still convinced that the Church must be wrong otherwise I was a heretic and I certainly did not want to be a Catholic. But, as the Holy Spirit kept drawing me to the explicable evidence by the shear weight of which I could no longer deny and I succumbed to the Spirit drawing me to Christ’s Church.
(Ernie) If it doesn't agree with the word, I will not receive it, or teach it as the word, because I will give an account of what I believe and teach. If you are going to post my statements, please post all of them, and don't pick and choose what you can answer. Let everyone see what I have said, and make their own judgment.
(Cristoiglesia) I will continue to do what I have thus far done and post your comments in their entirety.
We agree that we both must teach the truth of God’s Word and not accept contradiction. You will find with study and time, as so many have, that the Church teaching, doctrines and practices do not conflict with the written Word of God in any way. You will come to believe with study that such a premise of conflict is impossible to sustain and come to the realization that Jesus founded one true Church which contains the fullness of His truth. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
15 August, 2009
Discussion with Ernie about Baptism, the use of sacramentals and exorcism.
(Ernie) I see you have taken my answers and teisted the meaning of what I said, much like the Pharisees and Saducees did to Jesus.
(Cristoiglesia) No, I simply responded to what you stated. I made no attempt to twist anything you said. Perhaps you could give an example of those twisting of your statements.
Ernie) Ok, answer me this; does the Catholic church baptize babies? The Church does not recognize this, because Jesus is our example of baptism, going under the water. Plus, since baptism is an act of one's faith, it cannot be performed on a baby, because he/she doesn't know what is happening, so it cannot be an act of their faith.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes the Catholic Church has baptized infants from Pentecost onward. We see several instances in Scriptures where whole families were baptized. The example of whole families would certainly include infants. So, the Church does recognize the baptism of infants because the Church has done this from the beginning which was Pentecost. There is nowhere in Scriptures that anyone is forbidden from being baptized nor should there be since Jesus stated that baptism is necessary for salvation. Also, baptism is the circumcision of the New Covenant that brings one into the familial relationship with God.
You say that Jesus is our example by going under water but this is not biblical. You referenced the following to support your contention:
Mat 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
Mar 1:10 And forthwith coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens open and the Spirit as a dove descending and remaining on him.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said: See, here is water: What doth hinder me from being baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took away Philip: and the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip was found in Azotus: and passing through, he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Looking at the Scripture you provided we find no evidence of Jesus being baptized by immersion or anyone else. It simply says He walked out of the water after being baptized. There is nothing here that indicates that He may have been immersed.
The only place in early writings where we find any instruction on baptism is in the first century writing of the “Didache” which is also known as the “Training of the twelve”. It says to baptize in living water by immersion, pouring or aspersion. No one knows how Jesus was baptized as to the methodology because there is no biblical, historical or Patristic evidence as to how it occurred whether by immersion, pouring or aspersion.
Appealing to Scriptures and adding to them by saying that they specifically support one method of Baptism over another is adding to what the Scriptures actually say.
Now you say that baptism can only be an act of faith and I would assume that the reason you conclude this is because the only time baptism is spoken of explicitly is in relation to adult baptism but as I said before in the Bible the baptism of children is implicit in the baptism of entire families. It does point to the understanding that baptism is the new circumcision and that the act of faith is, like circumcision, done by the parents. They would have understood that being outside of God’s family and still under the influence of original sin is danger to eternal life. Especially since the teaching of Jesus is that this is necessary for eternal life.
In further analysis of your contention that baptism must follow an act of faith we must not only look at infants but also at others who have no ability to act on faith which implies that a certain level of reason and intellect unencumbered by illogical thought. Of course, we must notice here that such a restriction implies that faith comes from reason and intellect. But Jesus gave us at least one example in John 6 when speaking of the belief in His instructions to “eat His Body and drink His Blood” of the necessity of the belief that the bread and the wine are truly, actually and substantially the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord comes from the Spirit and that no amount of intellect or reason can bring us to true faith.
There is no doubt when Jesus spoke in unambiguous language that we must be baptized to be among the elect in heaven that He was not saying that only those of a certain intellect and reason could be saved. His offer of salvation is for everyone and is offered to infants, mentally impaired and mentally ill. All are included in the salvific plan as all have the law circumcised on their hearts whether they have the ability to recognize it or not. Also, infants have no actual sins to confess but benefit from baptism by removing the stain of original sin and being one in the family of God. So, infants do not have actual sin to confess but like adults with reason and intellect they do have a need for God’s salvific grace imputed by baptism.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
Here is additional writing of mine on the subject from elsewhere in this blog that provides more Scripture evidence:
http://fiatvolvntastua.blogspot.com/2009/06/is-infant-baptism-biblical.html
(Ernie) There are many other inconsistencies in the Catholic belief, such as holy water and exorcism. While we are to cast out demons, it doesn't involve holy water, or some ritual. Jesus said come out of him/her, nothing more, nothing less.
(Cristoiglesia) You have already seen the use of Holy Water as a sacramental in the water of Baptism in my explanation of infant baptism. Obviously from Jesus’ perspective water is important in the cleansing of sin and as a defense of sin.
Obviously you have never seen or participated in an exorcism if you believe it is a simple act of evoking the name of Jesus and the demon responds immediately to the command. It requires fasting of the participants and also requires that they have the authority to confront the demon or demons on behalf of Jesus. A priest does all things in persona Christi which means in the delivering of the Sacraments we are the hands and the mouth of our Lord. This is one reason why validly ordained priests in apostolic succession are so important and necessary. Sometimes direct authority from Christ is necessary to provide for the faithful in the delivering of God’s grace through the Sacraments and in confronting demons.
Act 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
Act 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.
Act 19:13 Now some also of the Jewish exorcists, who went about, attempted to invoke over them that had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying: I conjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preacheth.
Act 19:14 And there were certain men, seven sons of Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, that did this.
Act 19:15 But the wicked spirit, answering, said to them: Jesus I know: and Paul I know. But who are you?
Act 19:16 And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Obviously, according to the previous Scriptures, there is much more is involved than you thought in regards in regards to authority, preparation and methodology. Remember in the Church dwells the fullness of truth and not in the sects in protest of Christ’s Church who have left the protection of the teaching authority of the Church. The Bible teaches that not everything that Jesus taught to the apostles is contained in Scriptures. Most of the teaching of Jesus is passed down through apostolic succession and this is but one example of the errors that occur in understanding by the heretical teaching of Sola Scriptura by Protestants. As you see it can be a very serious error.
(Ernie)I do not agree that the Catholic church represents the Church, because of the many practices that do not agree with scripture.
(Cristoiglesia) If there were in fact Scriptures that are not in agreement with Catholic teaching and practice I would agree with you as would most Catholic Christians and would reject the Church for Judaism or Atheism. Because such realization would make Jesus a liar and a pretender to being the Messiah prophesied. All of the veracity of Christianity through Christ’s testimony would be destroyed. Jesus’ promises about His Church would be lies.
He said His Church was built on the foundation stones of the twelve apostles and that foundation is built upon by apostolic succession. We see this in action in the book of Acts.
He said His Church would endure for all times when He said that the “gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.”
He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one in a plea for unity as His will.
The Bible further states that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the Church”.
For the first 1500 years the only Church was the Church that gathered around the valid bishop in apostolic succession until the reformers decided to usurp this authority given by Christ to the apostles for their own doctrines and churches of men; in doing so, the Protestants deny Christ’s veracity in creating an enduring Church and His authority given to His Church for teaching. Outside of the Church founded by Jesus and the disciples there is no authority or assurance of veracity.
(Ernie)Please post this on your blog, and give scriptures to support your beliefs. Here are my references: Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Acts 8:36-39, Matthew 8:16-17, Mark 5:8-13, and Acts 16-18.
(Cristoiglesia) Done! Thank you for you commentary and the continued opportunity to respond to your misunderstandings of Jesus’ and the disciples teaching through the Church. Anytime you need help in understanding what Jesus taught I will be pleased to help. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) No, I simply responded to what you stated. I made no attempt to twist anything you said. Perhaps you could give an example of those twisting of your statements.
Ernie) Ok, answer me this; does the Catholic church baptize babies? The Church does not recognize this, because Jesus is our example of baptism, going under the water. Plus, since baptism is an act of one's faith, it cannot be performed on a baby, because he/she doesn't know what is happening, so it cannot be an act of their faith.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes the Catholic Church has baptized infants from Pentecost onward. We see several instances in Scriptures where whole families were baptized. The example of whole families would certainly include infants. So, the Church does recognize the baptism of infants because the Church has done this from the beginning which was Pentecost. There is nowhere in Scriptures that anyone is forbidden from being baptized nor should there be since Jesus stated that baptism is necessary for salvation. Also, baptism is the circumcision of the New Covenant that brings one into the familial relationship with God.
You say that Jesus is our example by going under water but this is not biblical. You referenced the following to support your contention:
Mat 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
Mar 1:10 And forthwith coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens open and the Spirit as a dove descending and remaining on him.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said: See, here is water: What doth hinder me from being baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took away Philip: and the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip was found in Azotus: and passing through, he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Looking at the Scripture you provided we find no evidence of Jesus being baptized by immersion or anyone else. It simply says He walked out of the water after being baptized. There is nothing here that indicates that He may have been immersed.
The only place in early writings where we find any instruction on baptism is in the first century writing of the “Didache” which is also known as the “Training of the twelve”. It says to baptize in living water by immersion, pouring or aspersion. No one knows how Jesus was baptized as to the methodology because there is no biblical, historical or Patristic evidence as to how it occurred whether by immersion, pouring or aspersion.
Appealing to Scriptures and adding to them by saying that they specifically support one method of Baptism over another is adding to what the Scriptures actually say.
Now you say that baptism can only be an act of faith and I would assume that the reason you conclude this is because the only time baptism is spoken of explicitly is in relation to adult baptism but as I said before in the Bible the baptism of children is implicit in the baptism of entire families. It does point to the understanding that baptism is the new circumcision and that the act of faith is, like circumcision, done by the parents. They would have understood that being outside of God’s family and still under the influence of original sin is danger to eternal life. Especially since the teaching of Jesus is that this is necessary for eternal life.
In further analysis of your contention that baptism must follow an act of faith we must not only look at infants but also at others who have no ability to act on faith which implies that a certain level of reason and intellect unencumbered by illogical thought. Of course, we must notice here that such a restriction implies that faith comes from reason and intellect. But Jesus gave us at least one example in John 6 when speaking of the belief in His instructions to “eat His Body and drink His Blood” of the necessity of the belief that the bread and the wine are truly, actually and substantially the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord comes from the Spirit and that no amount of intellect or reason can bring us to true faith.
There is no doubt when Jesus spoke in unambiguous language that we must be baptized to be among the elect in heaven that He was not saying that only those of a certain intellect and reason could be saved. His offer of salvation is for everyone and is offered to infants, mentally impaired and mentally ill. All are included in the salvific plan as all have the law circumcised on their hearts whether they have the ability to recognize it or not. Also, infants have no actual sins to confess but benefit from baptism by removing the stain of original sin and being one in the family of God. So, infants do not have actual sin to confess but like adults with reason and intellect they do have a need for God’s salvific grace imputed by baptism.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
Here is additional writing of mine on the subject from elsewhere in this blog that provides more Scripture evidence:
http://fiatvolvntastua.blogspot.com/2009/06/is-infant-baptism-biblical.html
(Ernie) There are many other inconsistencies in the Catholic belief, such as holy water and exorcism. While we are to cast out demons, it doesn't involve holy water, or some ritual. Jesus said come out of him/her, nothing more, nothing less.
(Cristoiglesia) You have already seen the use of Holy Water as a sacramental in the water of Baptism in my explanation of infant baptism. Obviously from Jesus’ perspective water is important in the cleansing of sin and as a defense of sin.
Obviously you have never seen or participated in an exorcism if you believe it is a simple act of evoking the name of Jesus and the demon responds immediately to the command. It requires fasting of the participants and also requires that they have the authority to confront the demon or demons on behalf of Jesus. A priest does all things in persona Christi which means in the delivering of the Sacraments we are the hands and the mouth of our Lord. This is one reason why validly ordained priests in apostolic succession are so important and necessary. Sometimes direct authority from Christ is necessary to provide for the faithful in the delivering of God’s grace through the Sacraments and in confronting demons.
Act 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
Act 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.
Act 19:13 Now some also of the Jewish exorcists, who went about, attempted to invoke over them that had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying: I conjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preacheth.
Act 19:14 And there were certain men, seven sons of Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, that did this.
Act 19:15 But the wicked spirit, answering, said to them: Jesus I know: and Paul I know. But who are you?
Act 19:16 And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Obviously, according to the previous Scriptures, there is much more is involved than you thought in regards in regards to authority, preparation and methodology. Remember in the Church dwells the fullness of truth and not in the sects in protest of Christ’s Church who have left the protection of the teaching authority of the Church. The Bible teaches that not everything that Jesus taught to the apostles is contained in Scriptures. Most of the teaching of Jesus is passed down through apostolic succession and this is but one example of the errors that occur in understanding by the heretical teaching of Sola Scriptura by Protestants. As you see it can be a very serious error.
(Ernie)I do not agree that the Catholic church represents the Church, because of the many practices that do not agree with scripture.
(Cristoiglesia) If there were in fact Scriptures that are not in agreement with Catholic teaching and practice I would agree with you as would most Catholic Christians and would reject the Church for Judaism or Atheism. Because such realization would make Jesus a liar and a pretender to being the Messiah prophesied. All of the veracity of Christianity through Christ’s testimony would be destroyed. Jesus’ promises about His Church would be lies.
He said His Church was built on the foundation stones of the twelve apostles and that foundation is built upon by apostolic succession. We see this in action in the book of Acts.
He said His Church would endure for all times when He said that the “gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.”
He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one in a plea for unity as His will.
The Bible further states that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the Church”.
For the first 1500 years the only Church was the Church that gathered around the valid bishop in apostolic succession until the reformers decided to usurp this authority given by Christ to the apostles for their own doctrines and churches of men; in doing so, the Protestants deny Christ’s veracity in creating an enduring Church and His authority given to His Church for teaching. Outside of the Church founded by Jesus and the disciples there is no authority or assurance of veracity.
(Ernie)Please post this on your blog, and give scriptures to support your beliefs. Here are my references: Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Acts 8:36-39, Matthew 8:16-17, Mark 5:8-13, and Acts 16-18.
(Cristoiglesia) Done! Thank you for you commentary and the continued opportunity to respond to your misunderstandings of Jesus’ and the disciples teaching through the Church. Anytime you need help in understanding what Jesus taught I will be pleased to help. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
14 August, 2009
Discussion with Ernie about saints, idolatry and authority
(Ernie) I am not bearing false witness against you or any Christian, but I have seen people of the Catholic faith with a statue of Mary, bowing down and praying to her. Maybe this doesn't represent the Catholic Church, but like other Christians, some do things outside of the word, and that is the reference I make.
(Cristoiglesia) I see that you are a charismatic Christian and have received some of the gifts of the Spirit but you seem to think that you have the gift of reading minds. You are saying that if someone bows down before an object that they are praying to that object as a God. That requires the ability to read minds. Is this what you are claiming? I bow down beside my bed every morning upon awakening and pray but not to my bed but to God in the Trinity. I often bow in Church before the Cross to pray but I am not praying to the Cross but to God. Here is what the official teaching of the Catholic Church says in the Catechism about your accusation that we commit idolatry:
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
Catholics most often bow and humble themselves before God to pray. So, obviously when you observed someone bowing and praying you jumped to the conclusion that they were praying to an idol. Do you see that prejudice and ignorance can cause you to bear false witness against others? As I told you before you should seek forgiveness for your unintentional ignorant lies against the Church.
(Ernie) Do you not know that the righteous the biblew speaks about are the living saints on earth? All Christians are saints of God, not just the apostles, or those who have gone on to heaven. The living on earth are to pray for the living on earth, not those in heaven pray for us. I don't see any scripture to support that.
(Cristoiglesia) Well it seems that you know what the saints are but then you err in saying only saints on earth can pray for others and not those who have received our heavenly hope. I cannot find any biblical teaching that excludes any of the saints from praying for others or asking them to pray for us. Perhaps you could provide chapter and verse that supports your idea that those who have won the race no longer show their love for those of us who have still not realized our heavenly hope. Are you familiar with who are the Church militant, suffering and triumphant?
Here is what the Bible says about praying to saints and our perspective as Catholics. When we use the term pray in relation to the saints we are using the archaic meaning of pray which simply means to ask such as the saying “pray tell”. From my blog:
First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God.
(Ernie) I believe more than just Jesus dying for us and that He is the Son of God.
(Cristoiglesia) Good, one must be very careful to state what they mean.
(Ernie) I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, I believe in the 5 fold ministry gifts, and the 9 gifts of the Spirit, and much more.
(Cristoiglesia) Many Catholics have received the gifts of the Spirit and use them for the benefit of he Church. I am a charismatic as well.
(Ernie) Not sure of all that the Catholics believe, but I don't agree with anything against the word.
(Cristoiglesia) Well, if you read the Bible then you know a great deal of Catholic beliefs. We wrote much of our beliefs and practices in the New Testament and the book of Acts chronicles the formation of the Church for the first few decades. When you read the New Testament of the Bible you are reading about the Catholic Church. Since all of the authors were Catholic Christians who were inspired by God there is nothing in these writings that are in opposition of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church also canonized the entire Bible under the authority that Jesus gave to us. Since we wrote much of the Bible and canonized it would be illogical and foolish for anyone to think that we would not follow our own teaching, don’t you think? So, in reality, the Catholic Church has a more legitimate claim to being a Bible teaching Church than the man-made sects of Protestantism. The truth is that Jesus promised all believers that His Church would be the enduring Church, free from apostasy that will remain for all times the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. His Church, the Catholic Church is the Ark for humanity from a sinful and deceived world.
(Ernie) I don't know what the Regula Fidei is, but I do follow scripture. Still, there is no reference to get the saints in heaven to pray for us. Do you believe all believers are saints?
(Cristoiglesia) The “Regula Fidei” means the rule of faith which the Scriptures teach is the Church founded by Christ and the disciples which is the Catholic Church. There was no other Church. It is good to follow Scripture but it is wrong and unbiblical to appeal to the Scriptures as the Regula Fidei. That is usurping the authority Jesus gave to the Church.
Yes all believers are saints but not all saints in the Church militant endure to final salvation. The Church suffering and triumphant are those who have endured in Christ. Now you know that all the saints are commanded to love each other and to show that love through intercessory prayer for others to God. There are no exceptions as we all worship together and pray for each other. Clearly this is God’s will from Scriptures. Our love for those with the heavenly hope does not end when we have won the race. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) I see that you are a charismatic Christian and have received some of the gifts of the Spirit but you seem to think that you have the gift of reading minds. You are saying that if someone bows down before an object that they are praying to that object as a God. That requires the ability to read minds. Is this what you are claiming? I bow down beside my bed every morning upon awakening and pray but not to my bed but to God in the Trinity. I often bow in Church before the Cross to pray but I am not praying to the Cross but to God. Here is what the official teaching of the Catholic Church says in the Catechism about your accusation that we commit idolatry:
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
Catholics most often bow and humble themselves before God to pray. So, obviously when you observed someone bowing and praying you jumped to the conclusion that they were praying to an idol. Do you see that prejudice and ignorance can cause you to bear false witness against others? As I told you before you should seek forgiveness for your unintentional ignorant lies against the Church.
(Ernie) Do you not know that the righteous the biblew speaks about are the living saints on earth? All Christians are saints of God, not just the apostles, or those who have gone on to heaven. The living on earth are to pray for the living on earth, not those in heaven pray for us. I don't see any scripture to support that.
(Cristoiglesia) Well it seems that you know what the saints are but then you err in saying only saints on earth can pray for others and not those who have received our heavenly hope. I cannot find any biblical teaching that excludes any of the saints from praying for others or asking them to pray for us. Perhaps you could provide chapter and verse that supports your idea that those who have won the race no longer show their love for those of us who have still not realized our heavenly hope. Are you familiar with who are the Church militant, suffering and triumphant?
Here is what the Bible says about praying to saints and our perspective as Catholics. When we use the term pray in relation to the saints we are using the archaic meaning of pray which simply means to ask such as the saying “pray tell”. From my blog:
First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God.
(Ernie) I believe more than just Jesus dying for us and that He is the Son of God.
(Cristoiglesia) Good, one must be very careful to state what they mean.
(Ernie) I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, I believe in the 5 fold ministry gifts, and the 9 gifts of the Spirit, and much more.
(Cristoiglesia) Many Catholics have received the gifts of the Spirit and use them for the benefit of he Church. I am a charismatic as well.
(Ernie) Not sure of all that the Catholics believe, but I don't agree with anything against the word.
(Cristoiglesia) Well, if you read the Bible then you know a great deal of Catholic beliefs. We wrote much of our beliefs and practices in the New Testament and the book of Acts chronicles the formation of the Church for the first few decades. When you read the New Testament of the Bible you are reading about the Catholic Church. Since all of the authors were Catholic Christians who were inspired by God there is nothing in these writings that are in opposition of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church also canonized the entire Bible under the authority that Jesus gave to us. Since we wrote much of the Bible and canonized it would be illogical and foolish for anyone to think that we would not follow our own teaching, don’t you think? So, in reality, the Catholic Church has a more legitimate claim to being a Bible teaching Church than the man-made sects of Protestantism. The truth is that Jesus promised all believers that His Church would be the enduring Church, free from apostasy that will remain for all times the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. His Church, the Catholic Church is the Ark for humanity from a sinful and deceived world.
(Ernie) I don't know what the Regula Fidei is, but I do follow scripture. Still, there is no reference to get the saints in heaven to pray for us. Do you believe all believers are saints?
(Cristoiglesia) The “Regula Fidei” means the rule of faith which the Scriptures teach is the Church founded by Christ and the disciples which is the Catholic Church. There was no other Church. It is good to follow Scripture but it is wrong and unbiblical to appeal to the Scriptures as the Regula Fidei. That is usurping the authority Jesus gave to the Church.
Yes all believers are saints but not all saints in the Church militant endure to final salvation. The Church suffering and triumphant are those who have endured in Christ. Now you know that all the saints are commanded to love each other and to show that love through intercessory prayer for others to God. There are no exceptions as we all worship together and pray for each other. Clearly this is God’s will from Scriptures. Our love for those with the heavenly hope does not end when we have won the race. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Discussion with Ernie who defends bearing false witness
(Ernie) "Forgive me if I spoke against the church, but if anything does not agree with the word, it is not part of the church."
(Cristoiglesia) Your apology should be through a confession to our Lord. That is exactly my point. One should not bear false witness against others it is a mortal sin to do so. There is nothing the Church teaches that goes against God’s Word.
(Ernie) Mary is blessed to be Jesus mother, but we do not pray to her, or ask the saints to pray for us. Jesus said He sits at the right hand of God, interceding for us.
(Cristoiglesia) Really, why do you call yourself Christian and then go against God’s Word. Jesus taught us to love each other and to pray for each other. He said that the prayers of the righteous are of great benefit. Who is more righteous than those who have already received our heavenly hope? Where in the Bible does it forbid us to pray for each other?
(Ernie) No one is greater than Jesus, and we don't need any go-between.
(Cristoiglesia) So if someone asked you to pray for them then you would not? In your belief are you forbidden to ask another to pray for you? Do you know about the Communion of Saints?
(Ernie) I am a Christian, but not a Catholic. No disrespect intended, but I don't believe what Catholics believe, except that Jesus is Lord and Savior. If you teach only the word of God, I will never speak a word against you. If you go against the word, I will.
(Cristoiglesia) So the only thing you believe in the Bible is that Jesus is the Lord and Savior?
Why do you reject the great majority of God’s Word? There is nothing in Scriptures that is taught by the Christ’s own Church that is contrary to the Word of God. Remember the Bible says that His Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” and that Jesus gave His Church all teaching authority as the Regula Fidei. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) Your apology should be through a confession to our Lord. That is exactly my point. One should not bear false witness against others it is a mortal sin to do so. There is nothing the Church teaches that goes against God’s Word.
(Ernie) Mary is blessed to be Jesus mother, but we do not pray to her, or ask the saints to pray for us. Jesus said He sits at the right hand of God, interceding for us.
(Cristoiglesia) Really, why do you call yourself Christian and then go against God’s Word. Jesus taught us to love each other and to pray for each other. He said that the prayers of the righteous are of great benefit. Who is more righteous than those who have already received our heavenly hope? Where in the Bible does it forbid us to pray for each other?
(Ernie) No one is greater than Jesus, and we don't need any go-between.
(Cristoiglesia) So if someone asked you to pray for them then you would not? In your belief are you forbidden to ask another to pray for you? Do you know about the Communion of Saints?
(Ernie) I am a Christian, but not a Catholic. No disrespect intended, but I don't believe what Catholics believe, except that Jesus is Lord and Savior. If you teach only the word of God, I will never speak a word against you. If you go against the word, I will.
(Cristoiglesia) So the only thing you believe in the Bible is that Jesus is the Lord and Savior?
Why do you reject the great majority of God’s Word? There is nothing in Scriptures that is taught by the Christ’s own Church that is contrary to the Word of God. Remember the Bible says that His Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” and that Jesus gave His Church all teaching authority as the Regula Fidei. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
10 August, 2009
Discussion with Esperenza who attacks Christ's Church
(Esperenza) The Catholic Church is not Jesus Church.
(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps you can share with me why you would make such a statement in contrast to the evidence to the contrary. In the Scriptures we see Jesus using construction vernacular in founding the visible Church. He calls Himself the cornerstone and the disciples the twelve foundation stones. He tells Simon that He is founding the Church upon his leadership of the disciples. We see in the book of Acts the Church being formed along the lines of apostolic succession.
The first act of ordination is the selection and ordination of St. Matthias to replace Judas among the twelve. We see the disciples selecting their own disciples, training them and ordaining them to be Deacons, Presbyters and Bishops. We see these ordained clergy going about their work and God’s work preaching the gospel and founding congregations among the Jews and the Gentiles. There is but one Church and this Church continues and is called Christian and Catholic at Antioch in about the year 107 AD to 110AD by a disciple of two of the twelve named St. Ignatius of Antioch. The Ante-Nicene fathers testify in their writings of the one Church established by Christ and the faithful continuation of that Church.
We see the early Church writing down some of the teaching of Jesus which is contained in the New Testament of Scriptures to preserve these teachings and for them to be used as part of the "regula fidei" of the Church. These are writings to be used within the community of the Church and not to be used outside of the visible Church.
We see the Church fighting against heresies and in doing so forming doctrine. The first challenge is the Arian heresy led by the Bishop Arius which was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325AD. Out of this Council came the defining of the Trinity that had been believed from the very beginning of the Church as a foundational teaching of Christianity but which was being attacked. The Holy Spirit through the Church prevailed as it did when the nature of Christ was challenged by the Gnostics and others and the Church subsequently declared Jesus to be fully man and fully God. Other challenges ensued as ”the gates of hell” tried to prevail against the Church.
Through these spiritual battles the Church has proved that it is the Church spoken of in Scriptures and consisting of the exemplification of Christ’s promises to humanity about His Church. History records that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus and the disciples. The Church represents the enduring Church that Jesus promised having lasted for 2000 years and is the only Church that can claim with veracity to represent this promise. It is the Church that has protected the faith and has never fallen into apostasy giving testimony before the world that the “gates of hell” will never prevail. It has continuously proven to be the “shining city on the hill” and an example to the world and most importantly of all the Church is the epitome of the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
How can anyone who has done their due diligence by studying history, Scriptures and the Patristic evidence come to any other conclusion than that the Church called Catholic is the very same Church founded by Jesus upon the “Rock” of St. Peter. If there is evidence of another show it before God and men or else become silent.
(Esperenza) It does not follow the bible.
(Cristoiglesia) That is impossible. If you believe it does not then you must be in error because the Church can never disagree with the Scriptures. You must realize that the Bible is about the Church, the Church is not about the Bible as it is in Protestant sects. The Bible follows the Church.
Where the Protestants err is by not approaching Scriptures in a scholarly fashion using proper hermeneutical principals but instead approach Scriptures in an eisegetical fashion. That is why Protestant sects have so many different heresies mixed in with their truth. They also continue to use syncretism to blend their Humanist ideas and philosophies with biblical Christianity causing great errors. With the fundamentalist faction of Protestantism their teaching is greatly influenced by their hatred for Christ’s Church and they desperately and erroneously make doctrines opposing the Church that Christ created which has the fullness of truth through Sacred Tradition.
(Esperenza) Your churches are full of idols. You wear a cross around your neck, which is idol worship and also the symbol of a penis and oppossion to God.”
There is no idolatry in he Catholic Church. All you have to do to confirm this is check the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you will find that the worship of anyone or anything but God is strictly forbidden. By definition an idol is an object or person who is worshipped. We worship neither.
Yes, I do wear a cross around my neck as well as the Lord’s Prayer which is inscribed on the back of the cross. This cross reminds me of Jesus and the devotion I am called to have for Him. It also reminds me of what He did for me in dying on the cross so that I can have eternal life in Him. He also follows the teaching of St. Paul recorded in Scriptures to preach Christ crucified to the non-believers. This is not idol worship as I do not worship the object but the living Christ.
Now, I am not sure what you mean by “the symbol of the penis”. You might want to share this in some detail so that I can respond appropriately but if I may, I would assume that what you are referring to is the fact that the early Church used a symbol of the penis to represent God the Father. You might explain why you think this is in opposition to God and might even explain why the leadership of the first and second century Church did not have opposition to this symbolism.
(Esperenza) You beleive in the trinity which is a pagan idea that infiltrated the church and has no basis whatsoever in the bible. Nowhere do you find the word trinity in the bible or that teaching.
Yes, the Church has taught the Trinity from the beginning as an extension of the teaching of Jesus and the disciples. Jesus being fully God and fully man is a foundational teaching of Christianity. To depart from this teaching is to cease to be Christian. The early opposition to this teaching is personified in the teaching of the Bishop Arius. He led an intellectual revolt against the Church in the fourth century promoting the belief that Jesus was not God and questioning His divinity. The powerful Bishop was opposed by one called by the Holy Spirit who was a lowly young Deacon named Athanasius who was accompanying His Bishop to the Council in Nicaea which was convened to discuss the Arian heresy. At first Athanasius alone stood up to the powerful Bishop Arius but by his inspired refutation of the teaching of Arius he emboldened others to also come to the defense of the teaching of the disciples. This became the lifelong work of St. Athanasius and the teaching of the disciples prevailed despite the powerful Bishop and even the support of Arius by the Emperor Constantine.
No the word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is clearly there. The word Trinity came about as a descriptive term of the biblical teaching of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being one. It was defined in the Nicene Creed and in the Athanasian Creeds of the Church.
Satan would consider his greatest accomplishment to deny the divinity of Jesus in the Trinity as it would mean that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied and this would mean that the world still awaits the Messiah. It would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Savior of the World. He is not a liar or a pretender but instead our Lord and God.
(Esperenza) Your church teaches lies and misleads the people.
(Cristoiglesia) Your statement here is impossible because the Scriptures say that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
(Esperenza)Your church is blood guilty and disgusting.
It seems as though you are one that personifies the following:
(2Ti 4:3) For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
(2Ti 4:4) And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
(Esperenza) I speak for Jesus and declare the Catholic church corrupt and ready for destruction by Jesus.
(Cristoiglesia) It seems as if you believe you can usurp the power and the authority of Christ who founded His Church and promised it to be the enduring Church without apostasy. The Church is the ONLY testimony to the veracity of Jesus’ words. If the Church has indeed become corrupt then it would only prove Jesus to be a liar but , of course this cannot be proven and is just the desperate rant of one influenced and doing the work of the great deceiver Satan who follows his doctrines of men and denies Jesus to be God and His divinity as a result.
Jesus also spoke to your desire that the Church be destroyed when He said that the Church would endure until He comes again to judge the quick and the dead. In other words, Jesus said that your desire is not possible.
May our Lord have mercy on you so filled with hatred that you feel justified in attacking Christ’s Church because its teaching does not match your doctrines of men in your man made sect.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps you can share with me why you would make such a statement in contrast to the evidence to the contrary. In the Scriptures we see Jesus using construction vernacular in founding the visible Church. He calls Himself the cornerstone and the disciples the twelve foundation stones. He tells Simon that He is founding the Church upon his leadership of the disciples. We see in the book of Acts the Church being formed along the lines of apostolic succession.
The first act of ordination is the selection and ordination of St. Matthias to replace Judas among the twelve. We see the disciples selecting their own disciples, training them and ordaining them to be Deacons, Presbyters and Bishops. We see these ordained clergy going about their work and God’s work preaching the gospel and founding congregations among the Jews and the Gentiles. There is but one Church and this Church continues and is called Christian and Catholic at Antioch in about the year 107 AD to 110AD by a disciple of two of the twelve named St. Ignatius of Antioch. The Ante-Nicene fathers testify in their writings of the one Church established by Christ and the faithful continuation of that Church.
We see the early Church writing down some of the teaching of Jesus which is contained in the New Testament of Scriptures to preserve these teachings and for them to be used as part of the "regula fidei" of the Church. These are writings to be used within the community of the Church and not to be used outside of the visible Church.
We see the Church fighting against heresies and in doing so forming doctrine. The first challenge is the Arian heresy led by the Bishop Arius which was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325AD. Out of this Council came the defining of the Trinity that had been believed from the very beginning of the Church as a foundational teaching of Christianity but which was being attacked. The Holy Spirit through the Church prevailed as it did when the nature of Christ was challenged by the Gnostics and others and the Church subsequently declared Jesus to be fully man and fully God. Other challenges ensued as ”the gates of hell” tried to prevail against the Church.
Through these spiritual battles the Church has proved that it is the Church spoken of in Scriptures and consisting of the exemplification of Christ’s promises to humanity about His Church. History records that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus and the disciples. The Church represents the enduring Church that Jesus promised having lasted for 2000 years and is the only Church that can claim with veracity to represent this promise. It is the Church that has protected the faith and has never fallen into apostasy giving testimony before the world that the “gates of hell” will never prevail. It has continuously proven to be the “shining city on the hill” and an example to the world and most importantly of all the Church is the epitome of the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
How can anyone who has done their due diligence by studying history, Scriptures and the Patristic evidence come to any other conclusion than that the Church called Catholic is the very same Church founded by Jesus upon the “Rock” of St. Peter. If there is evidence of another show it before God and men or else become silent.
(Esperenza) It does not follow the bible.
(Cristoiglesia) That is impossible. If you believe it does not then you must be in error because the Church can never disagree with the Scriptures. You must realize that the Bible is about the Church, the Church is not about the Bible as it is in Protestant sects. The Bible follows the Church.
Where the Protestants err is by not approaching Scriptures in a scholarly fashion using proper hermeneutical principals but instead approach Scriptures in an eisegetical fashion. That is why Protestant sects have so many different heresies mixed in with their truth. They also continue to use syncretism to blend their Humanist ideas and philosophies with biblical Christianity causing great errors. With the fundamentalist faction of Protestantism their teaching is greatly influenced by their hatred for Christ’s Church and they desperately and erroneously make doctrines opposing the Church that Christ created which has the fullness of truth through Sacred Tradition.
(Esperenza) Your churches are full of idols. You wear a cross around your neck, which is idol worship and also the symbol of a penis and oppossion to God.”
There is no idolatry in he Catholic Church. All you have to do to confirm this is check the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you will find that the worship of anyone or anything but God is strictly forbidden. By definition an idol is an object or person who is worshipped. We worship neither.
Yes, I do wear a cross around my neck as well as the Lord’s Prayer which is inscribed on the back of the cross. This cross reminds me of Jesus and the devotion I am called to have for Him. It also reminds me of what He did for me in dying on the cross so that I can have eternal life in Him. He also follows the teaching of St. Paul recorded in Scriptures to preach Christ crucified to the non-believers. This is not idol worship as I do not worship the object but the living Christ.
Now, I am not sure what you mean by “the symbol of the penis”. You might want to share this in some detail so that I can respond appropriately but if I may, I would assume that what you are referring to is the fact that the early Church used a symbol of the penis to represent God the Father. You might explain why you think this is in opposition to God and might even explain why the leadership of the first and second century Church did not have opposition to this symbolism.
(Esperenza) You beleive in the trinity which is a pagan idea that infiltrated the church and has no basis whatsoever in the bible. Nowhere do you find the word trinity in the bible or that teaching.
Yes, the Church has taught the Trinity from the beginning as an extension of the teaching of Jesus and the disciples. Jesus being fully God and fully man is a foundational teaching of Christianity. To depart from this teaching is to cease to be Christian. The early opposition to this teaching is personified in the teaching of the Bishop Arius. He led an intellectual revolt against the Church in the fourth century promoting the belief that Jesus was not God and questioning His divinity. The powerful Bishop was opposed by one called by the Holy Spirit who was a lowly young Deacon named Athanasius who was accompanying His Bishop to the Council in Nicaea which was convened to discuss the Arian heresy. At first Athanasius alone stood up to the powerful Bishop Arius but by his inspired refutation of the teaching of Arius he emboldened others to also come to the defense of the teaching of the disciples. This became the lifelong work of St. Athanasius and the teaching of the disciples prevailed despite the powerful Bishop and even the support of Arius by the Emperor Constantine.
No the word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is clearly there. The word Trinity came about as a descriptive term of the biblical teaching of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being one. It was defined in the Nicene Creed and in the Athanasian Creeds of the Church.
Satan would consider his greatest accomplishment to deny the divinity of Jesus in the Trinity as it would mean that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied and this would mean that the world still awaits the Messiah. It would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Savior of the World. He is not a liar or a pretender but instead our Lord and God.
(Esperenza) Your church teaches lies and misleads the people.
(Cristoiglesia) Your statement here is impossible because the Scriptures say that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
(Esperenza)Your church is blood guilty and disgusting.
It seems as though you are one that personifies the following:
(2Ti 4:3) For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
(2Ti 4:4) And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
(Esperenza) I speak for Jesus and declare the Catholic church corrupt and ready for destruction by Jesus.
(Cristoiglesia) It seems as if you believe you can usurp the power and the authority of Christ who founded His Church and promised it to be the enduring Church without apostasy. The Church is the ONLY testimony to the veracity of Jesus’ words. If the Church has indeed become corrupt then it would only prove Jesus to be a liar but , of course this cannot be proven and is just the desperate rant of one influenced and doing the work of the great deceiver Satan who follows his doctrines of men and denies Jesus to be God and His divinity as a result.
Jesus also spoke to your desire that the Church be destroyed when He said that the Church would endure until He comes again to judge the quick and the dead. In other words, Jesus said that your desire is not possible.
May our Lord have mercy on you so filled with hatred that you feel justified in attacking Christ’s Church because its teaching does not match your doctrines of men in your man made sect.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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