(Saved by Faith) Twisting scripture as you all see fit seriously your barking up the wrong tree, most Christians won't argue with Catholics but i am the exception.
(Cristoiglesia) I would not think of “twisting Scriptures” or using eisegesis which is so common with Protestant apologists. I am always amazed at how bold they are in ripping verses out of context to support their presuppositions and heresies.
I am afraid that if you are looking for an argument then you are having a discussion with the wrong person. I will simply explain to you how orthodox Christian teaching is different from your beliefs. You can accept the teaching of Christ and the disciples as taught by the teaching authority of His Church or reject the teaching for your doctrines of men, the choice is yours. Hopefully if this does not change your point of view it will be beneficial to others who are deceived by false teaching. As for you I can only pray that the seed that is planted will grow on fertile ground and that you will be encouraged to study and respond to the Holy Spirit which calls you to His Church.
(Saved by Faith) To teach that men can lose salvation is to place the responsibility of salvation upon man's self-righteousness, i.e., if I do something wrong than I can forfeit my salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
(Cristoiglesia) First of all you start off with the wrong premise by believing that one can be self-righteous. All righteousness comes from God through His grace. Salvation is God’s work in us which is why He gave us the Paraclete to guide and inspire the Church as a community and to guide us individually to truth. Our initial salvation begins a journey that if we continue on the path to the narrow gate it will result in sanctification and final salvation.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
If we do not endure in our faith and fall away we will lose the race. We must continue to believe. (Note: In the Koine Greek the verb is subjunctive mood and means continues to believe)
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
There are dozens of other Scripture references that teach that we must endure and St. Paul said:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Here is what the prophet Ezekiel says about a righteous man and see if it sounds like the righteous are guaranteed eternal security……
(Eze 3:20 DRB) Moreover if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at thy hand.
(Eze 18:24 DRB) But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.
The same teaching is repeated by St. Paul in His letter to the Romans lest one say that this prophecy only applies to the OC……
(Rom 8:13 DRB) For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.
(Rom 6:16 DRB) Know you not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death or of obedience unto justice.
St. Paul’s teaching is full of warnings against lawlessness and false security regarding our salvation as well as the teaching of St. James…….
(Gal 5:19 DRB) Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,
(Gal 5:20 DRB) Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,
(Gal 5:21 DRB) Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.
(Gal 6:8 DRB) For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.
(Gal 6:9 DRB) And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.
(Jam 1:14 DRB) But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.
(Jam 1:15 DRB) Then, when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death.
(Jam 1:16 DRB) Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren.
We know that both St. Paul and St. James were speaking to and about believers as St. James confirms in the following verses lest there be any doubt….
(Jam 5:19 DRB) My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him:
(Jam 5:20 DRB) He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.
Jesus taught of the necessity of keeping the Word and of the consequences of not keeping the Word once received…..
(Joh 8:51 DRB) Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.
(Joh 11:25 DRB) Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
(Joh 11:26 DRB) And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?
(Luk 8:13 DRB) Now they upon the rock are they who when they hear receive the word with joy: and these have no roots: for they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away.
Now, those teaching the false doctrine of OSAS will defend their views with saying that those who continue in lawlessness never were saved to begin with and it was a false eternal security that they received. The Bible clearly contradicts such a belief because it states that those who fell away were believers……..
(Act 17:11 DRB) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.
(Act 17:12 DRB) And many indeed of them believed: and of honourable women that were Gentiles and of men, not a few.
Even St. Paul recognized that the righteous were in danger of falling away when He said:
(1Co 9:27 DRB) But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
St. Paul clarified his view and teaching in the following ……
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Even in the salvation chair passage of John 3:16 and also John 11:25-26 we find that in the Greek that a continuing tense is used in the word believe which clearly shows that we must “continue to believe” and not a one time belief for eternal security.
Here are a few more verses that emphasize our continuing belief and sanctification and warnings that the faithful can and often do fall away…..
(Rev 3:2 DRB) Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find not thy works full before my God.
(Rev 2:10 DRB) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death: and I will give thee the crown of life.
(Rev 2:11 DRB) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome shall not be hurt by the second death.
(1Jo 5:16 DRB) He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
(Saved by Faith) When the prodigal son deliberately left home, and went into sin--carefully notice that the father didn't disown him. The son was still loved and missed by his father. No matter what crimes the son may have committed, he was still a son. Do you think God is less righteous? Shame on those who teach that God casts out His children.
(Cristoiglesia) Of course God is righteous and charitable but you are forgetting that He is also the God of Justice. God expresses His love not only in continuing to draw us to Him and providing us with grace but also by allowing us free will to continue in our faith to Him or to reject Him as the previous verses indicate. If the Prodigal son had not returned to his father, his father would have never stopped loving him but would not have gone to him and forced him to return either. The prodigal son was not cast out by his father but left freely and returned freely to his family. God allows us to leave by choice and through sin and allows us to return and reconcile back into the family by contrite confession.
(Saved by Faith) It is true that, as Christians, we do sometimes walk away from God; but He is still faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1st John 1:9). There is no depth of sin to which a person can go, but that God will still forgive them if they SEEK it (Isaiah 1:18). What a wonderful Savior!
(Cristoiglesia) Yes but if we do not confess our sins with a contrite heart we continue to be separated from the familial relationship of our initial salvation by that sin.
(Saved by Faith)If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".
Rom 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? yes, of the Gentiles also.
Rom 3:30 For it is one God that justifieth circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.
(Cristoiglesia) St. Paul is teaching the Jews that they are not saved by the law of Moses. St Paul makes it clear that one cannot be justified by the virtue of faith alone as this is the opposite of the of the Gospel and the teaching of the apostles. In verses 20 and 28 he says that man is justified without the works of the law. What he is teaching is that the works of law and any other works are insufficient for justification by themselves unless joined to faith and Gods grace. No where does he teach faith alone as a means of justification. In chapter 2:6 of this epistle that God judges man according to our works and in 2:13 that not just the hearer of the law are justified but those who do the works. In Chapter 5:6 that our faith must be working in charity and repeats this same theme in 1 Cor 7:19. St. James tells us also that works with our faith are dead works.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
22 August, 2009
20 August, 2009
Discussion with Joshsy about the veracity of the Book of Mormon
(Cristoiglesia) I did not see any marks of Christ but instead the inspired work of Satan.
(Joshsy) A very bold statement!
I'll go on the record defending the Book of Mormon; Over one-half of all the verses in the Book of Mormon refer to our Lord. Some form of Christ’s name is mentioned more frequently per verse in the Book of Mormon than even in the New Testament.
He is given over one hundred different names in the Book of Mormon. Those names have a particular significance in describing His divine nature.
You're not the first Catholic clergyman I've spoken to about this; Sister Domenica Patienza in Rome, linguistic assistant to John Paul II felt differently. Padre Roberto Bossi in Trieste found the words moving enough that he left his position as a priest and was baptized into the LDS church. Several other priests spoke with me often, read with me, and spent time with me. All were offered, and most accepted a copy of the Book of Mormon; aside from Roberto all retained their faith in the Catholic church yet spoke highly of my faith.
I'm wondering what's so different with you?
I would never dare claim your church to be inspired of Satan; nor would I point to a book that has increased faith in Christ among so many as devilish.
Do you have any possible justification for calling it inspired by Satan. What horrible notion do you think comes from it to negate 4000 references to Christ and a lot of teachings that you know inspire people to be Christ-like?
(Cristoiglesia) I have a copy of the Book of Mormon in my bookcase above my desk as well as the D&C and The Pearl of Great Price.
What is so different with me is that by the grace of God I am not so easily deceived into the snare of Satan.
It is time for you to be honest and quit trying to be deceptive. You have no respect for the Catholic Church. Your founders proclaim that the Church founded by Jesus fell into apostasy despite the promises of Jesus that the gates of Hell will NEVER prevail against His Church. He called His Church an enduring Church until the end of the age, referring to the Parousia. His Church is built on a solid foundation of Himself as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones which we see built on by apostolic succession. Your Church says by implication that He was incompetent in founding His leadership and that the Church founded by Christ and the disciples fell into apostasy immediately after the death of the disciples. This is a direct attack by your founder and leadership on the veracity of Christ’s promises. You further claim that the Church remained apostate for 1800 years until your founder Joseph Smith and his corroborator Sidney Rigdon restored the Church and usurped Christ’s name. How does one restore something that Jesus said would always endure? One cannot! You claim authority that Jesus gave only to His Church. You claim a counterfeit Gospel. You are false teachers whom the Bible describes as ravaging wolves preying on those weak in knowledge and in faith. The Bible describes Mormons and other heretics as those unable to endure sound doctrine and promises that their continuing in their heretical ways will result in an eternity in the lake of fire as the unknowns to God. You claim to increase the faith in Christ but your teaching is of a false Christ than the one of Scriptures who you claim in the BoM created his own counterfeit church by implication to the one He originally created in Jerusalem. It is the devil that appears as an angel of light to deceive the world. He did it first with Eve and did it also with Mohammad and does it again with Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. Truly all teach doctrines of devils. Being Christ-like is to do God’s will and not to be deceived into believing that one can be a God also but instead to serve the one true God of the Trinity which is the source of our divine unity. This is the original temptation of Satan in the Garden appealing to human desire and ambition instead of selfless devotion. Satan keeps using the tried and true tricks to deceive men and man continues to be tempted by the same Satanic promises. Even Satan is not so bold as to attack directly Christ’s Church but uses gullible men to prove to some that Christ is a liar. He is not!
1 Timothy 3:15 (King James Version)
15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Joshsy) A very bold statement!
I'll go on the record defending the Book of Mormon; Over one-half of all the verses in the Book of Mormon refer to our Lord. Some form of Christ’s name is mentioned more frequently per verse in the Book of Mormon than even in the New Testament.
He is given over one hundred different names in the Book of Mormon. Those names have a particular significance in describing His divine nature.
You're not the first Catholic clergyman I've spoken to about this; Sister Domenica Patienza in Rome, linguistic assistant to John Paul II felt differently. Padre Roberto Bossi in Trieste found the words moving enough that he left his position as a priest and was baptized into the LDS church. Several other priests spoke with me often, read with me, and spent time with me. All were offered, and most accepted a copy of the Book of Mormon; aside from Roberto all retained their faith in the Catholic church yet spoke highly of my faith.
I'm wondering what's so different with you?
I would never dare claim your church to be inspired of Satan; nor would I point to a book that has increased faith in Christ among so many as devilish.
Do you have any possible justification for calling it inspired by Satan. What horrible notion do you think comes from it to negate 4000 references to Christ and a lot of teachings that you know inspire people to be Christ-like?
(Cristoiglesia) I have a copy of the Book of Mormon in my bookcase above my desk as well as the D&C and The Pearl of Great Price.
What is so different with me is that by the grace of God I am not so easily deceived into the snare of Satan.
It is time for you to be honest and quit trying to be deceptive. You have no respect for the Catholic Church. Your founders proclaim that the Church founded by Jesus fell into apostasy despite the promises of Jesus that the gates of Hell will NEVER prevail against His Church. He called His Church an enduring Church until the end of the age, referring to the Parousia. His Church is built on a solid foundation of Himself as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones which we see built on by apostolic succession. Your Church says by implication that He was incompetent in founding His leadership and that the Church founded by Christ and the disciples fell into apostasy immediately after the death of the disciples. This is a direct attack by your founder and leadership on the veracity of Christ’s promises. You further claim that the Church remained apostate for 1800 years until your founder Joseph Smith and his corroborator Sidney Rigdon restored the Church and usurped Christ’s name. How does one restore something that Jesus said would always endure? One cannot! You claim authority that Jesus gave only to His Church. You claim a counterfeit Gospel. You are false teachers whom the Bible describes as ravaging wolves preying on those weak in knowledge and in faith. The Bible describes Mormons and other heretics as those unable to endure sound doctrine and promises that their continuing in their heretical ways will result in an eternity in the lake of fire as the unknowns to God. You claim to increase the faith in Christ but your teaching is of a false Christ than the one of Scriptures who you claim in the BoM created his own counterfeit church by implication to the one He originally created in Jerusalem. It is the devil that appears as an angel of light to deceive the world. He did it first with Eve and did it also with Mohammad and does it again with Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. Truly all teach doctrines of devils. Being Christ-like is to do God’s will and not to be deceived into believing that one can be a God also but instead to serve the one true God of the Trinity which is the source of our divine unity. This is the original temptation of Satan in the Garden appealing to human desire and ambition instead of selfless devotion. Satan keeps using the tried and true tricks to deceive men and man continues to be tempted by the same Satanic promises. Even Satan is not so bold as to attack directly Christ’s Church but uses gullible men to prove to some that Christ is a liar. He is not!
1 Timothy 3:15 (King James Version)
15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
18 August, 2009
Discussion with Joshsy about the similarity of the Mormon doctrine of Godhood to orthodox Christian teaching
This exchange is the result of the Mormon “joshsy” equivocating the Mormon Doctrine of the Godhood to Catholic teaching
(joshsy) I know a great deal more about your church than you realize and if you re-read what I wrote you'll notice that I never criticized your church at all.
(Cristoiglesia) No, but you did equivocate your Godhood Doctrine to Catholic teaching. There is no similarity between Catholic teaching and Mormon teaching. The Catholic Church is monotheistic while the Mormon teaching is henotheistic. We worship one God and believe in only one God as the creator of all things where Mormons believe in a limitless number of Gods and kingdoms. You teach that humans and God are of one substance and that God started as a man and evolved into a God. You teach that this should be the aspiration of all men to create and populate their own kingdom. There is no such teaching in the Catholic Church and that is where you erred greatly in suggesting that we had similar beliefs.
(joshsy)Contrary to what you assume I have a great deal of respect for your religion and often defend it.
(Cristoiglesia) I have learned in apologetics not to assume anything. But, thank you for any defense of the Church that you may have made. But this is very strange for a member of a sect that teaches that they replaced Christ’s Church when it went into apostasy. Why would you defend what your leadership calls the apostate Church? I guess this sort of teaching came from the Campbellite origin of Mormon teaching where all the “restorationist” sects derived like your own. Jesus said that His Church would endure for all times and would never fall into apostasy. Your entire veracity rests on the presumption that it did. Such teaching certainly depicts Jesus at best an incompetent and at worst a liar when He taught about His Church. I guess your respect for the Catholic Church is in spite of your sects teaching.
(joshsy) While I don't have my copy of the catechisms handy and some items are hard to translate since I studied them in Italian rather than English, so my apologies that I can't state the specific section in which it speaks of this (I do remember it was around page 650 of my 880 page book).
(Cristoiglesia) I am quite familiar with the catechism and I cannot even imagine what you can be referring to when you say that your doctrine of Godhood is similar to any Catholic teaching. Please make an effort to find it. There is probably an Italian version online.
(joshsy) John 17 culminates with the eloquent potential "that they may be one in me as I am one in thee".
(Cristoiglesia) I believe that you are referring to Jesus’ plea to the father for unity among the brethren and compared it to the unity between Him and the Father. We are to be one body in His Church to be in His will. He was talking about the familial relationship that we the created have with the creator and with each other in faith.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.
How does this relate to the Godhood doctrine and where do you see the similarity?
(joshsy) To the extent that the Catholic church accepts the view of the trinity defined as the athanasian view while we follow the doctrine of the Godhead (which the majority of Protestants now believe as well however they keep with the term trinity yet have departed from it's mid historical definition) - to that extent we don't believe the same since our notion of God is slightly different. However it's probably close than you think!
(Cristoiglesia) Not only do I disagree that the orthodox Christian view of God being “slightly” different but instead contend that it is totally different from any Christian view I have ever studied. The Mormons are alone in their unlimited number of God’s among all religions and that we can evolve into becoming a god ourselves. I do not see any similarity between the Mormon view and orthodox Christian teaching and understanding. Jesus nor the apostles ever taught anything approaching the Mormon doctrine. I do not know of any Protestant teaching similar to the Mormon teaching of Godhood. You say that Trinitarian Protestants have departed from the orthodox teaching of the Trinity and I would like to know who you are speaking of and what their beliefs are exactly. I contend that they are not even close to Mormon teaching. Your notion of god/gods is profoundly different than orthodox Christian teaching.
(Joshsy) Perhaps the issue is what I alluded to in my comment - do you know what I believe? The vast majority of people believe some warped version of our doctrine as fact and thus are offended when they hear that they believe as we do.
(Cristoiglesia) I do believe I know what you teach as I have read all of the major Mormon writings as well as the writings of your founders. I did my thesis on the reason behind the appeal and growth of the Mormon Church. I am willing to listen as I do not want to bear false witness against anyone. I do not believe that you can support any similarities between the Catholic Church and the Mormon sect when it comes to the doctrine of Godhood.
God bless
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(joshsy) I know a great deal more about your church than you realize and if you re-read what I wrote you'll notice that I never criticized your church at all.
(Cristoiglesia) No, but you did equivocate your Godhood Doctrine to Catholic teaching. There is no similarity between Catholic teaching and Mormon teaching. The Catholic Church is monotheistic while the Mormon teaching is henotheistic. We worship one God and believe in only one God as the creator of all things where Mormons believe in a limitless number of Gods and kingdoms. You teach that humans and God are of one substance and that God started as a man and evolved into a God. You teach that this should be the aspiration of all men to create and populate their own kingdom. There is no such teaching in the Catholic Church and that is where you erred greatly in suggesting that we had similar beliefs.
(joshsy)Contrary to what you assume I have a great deal of respect for your religion and often defend it.
(Cristoiglesia) I have learned in apologetics not to assume anything. But, thank you for any defense of the Church that you may have made. But this is very strange for a member of a sect that teaches that they replaced Christ’s Church when it went into apostasy. Why would you defend what your leadership calls the apostate Church? I guess this sort of teaching came from the Campbellite origin of Mormon teaching where all the “restorationist” sects derived like your own. Jesus said that His Church would endure for all times and would never fall into apostasy. Your entire veracity rests on the presumption that it did. Such teaching certainly depicts Jesus at best an incompetent and at worst a liar when He taught about His Church. I guess your respect for the Catholic Church is in spite of your sects teaching.
(joshsy) While I don't have my copy of the catechisms handy and some items are hard to translate since I studied them in Italian rather than English, so my apologies that I can't state the specific section in which it speaks of this (I do remember it was around page 650 of my 880 page book).
(Cristoiglesia) I am quite familiar with the catechism and I cannot even imagine what you can be referring to when you say that your doctrine of Godhood is similar to any Catholic teaching. Please make an effort to find it. There is probably an Italian version online.
(joshsy) John 17 culminates with the eloquent potential "that they may be one in me as I am one in thee".
(Cristoiglesia) I believe that you are referring to Jesus’ plea to the father for unity among the brethren and compared it to the unity between Him and the Father. We are to be one body in His Church to be in His will. He was talking about the familial relationship that we the created have with the creator and with each other in faith.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.
How does this relate to the Godhood doctrine and where do you see the similarity?
(joshsy) To the extent that the Catholic church accepts the view of the trinity defined as the athanasian view while we follow the doctrine of the Godhead (which the majority of Protestants now believe as well however they keep with the term trinity yet have departed from it's mid historical definition) - to that extent we don't believe the same since our notion of God is slightly different. However it's probably close than you think!
(Cristoiglesia) Not only do I disagree that the orthodox Christian view of God being “slightly” different but instead contend that it is totally different from any Christian view I have ever studied. The Mormons are alone in their unlimited number of God’s among all religions and that we can evolve into becoming a god ourselves. I do not see any similarity between the Mormon view and orthodox Christian teaching and understanding. Jesus nor the apostles ever taught anything approaching the Mormon doctrine. I do not know of any Protestant teaching similar to the Mormon teaching of Godhood. You say that Trinitarian Protestants have departed from the orthodox teaching of the Trinity and I would like to know who you are speaking of and what their beliefs are exactly. I contend that they are not even close to Mormon teaching. Your notion of god/gods is profoundly different than orthodox Christian teaching.
(Joshsy) Perhaps the issue is what I alluded to in my comment - do you know what I believe? The vast majority of people believe some warped version of our doctrine as fact and thus are offended when they hear that they believe as we do.
(Cristoiglesia) I do believe I know what you teach as I have read all of the major Mormon writings as well as the writings of your founders. I did my thesis on the reason behind the appeal and growth of the Mormon Church. I am willing to listen as I do not want to bear false witness against anyone. I do not believe that you can support any similarities between the Catholic Church and the Mormon sect when it comes to the doctrine of Godhood.
God bless
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Response to Brother Joe about his accusation of the Church practicing Pelagianism
(Cristoiglesia)In responding to your statements about the Church teaching works righteousness or Pelagianism I said the following:
Show me in the Bible or in the Catechism where the Church teaches that the atonement is not sufficient.
Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one must do works to be saved.
Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one can be saved by works without faith.
(Brother Joe) You should read your catechism. It says on page 490, para # 2027 the following.
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we CAN then MERIT FOR OURSELVES AND FOR OTHERS all the graces needed to attain ETERNAL LIFE, as well as necessary temporal goods." (Catechism page 490, para # 2027)
...we can then merit (EARN) for ourselves... all the graces needed to attain eternal life...
(Cristoiglesia) Let us look at your claim in context from the Catechism:
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God.
Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
Here we see the Catechism saying that we are united to Christ through His atoning sacrifice. This contradicts your allegation that the Church teaches that the Passion and Resurrection are insufficient but instead it is an integral part of the salvific plan.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.
Here the Catechism says that the entirety of salvation is due to Christ’s atoning work and not of man.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
Here the Catechism is recognizing mans free will but that it is the grace of God that gives us the desire to do God’s will and His work.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
Here the Catechism clearly states that it is only because of God’s grace that man collaborates and that it is only through God’s grace that man can earn merit.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
Here we see that the merit that is earned is the work of the Holy Spirit and not of man. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit man would not be moved to good works which indeed is provided by God’s grace.
2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D).
2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).
Goal#1- Show me in the Bible or in the Catechism where the Church teaches that the atonement is not sufficient.
You were unable from the Catechism to prove that the Church teaches that the atonement of Christ is not sufficient and such an allegation is contradicted by Catechism #2017.
Goal #2- Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one must do works to be saved.
Catechism #2020 says that it is all God’s work and not mans. Catechism #2022 says it is wholly the work of the Holy Spirit that gives us the desire to do God’s work. So you have failed here also to prove your allegations as it clearly states that all good works are evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are entirely God’s doing and not mans.
Goal #3- Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one can be saved by works without faith.
The Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. Catechism #2025 states that ALL merit comes from God and not from man. So what it is teaching is that by corroborating with the Holy Spirit by our own free will we gain merit for ourselves and others and that we could not corroborate in the first place if it was not for God’s grace that brings us to initial salvation. So the Catechism unambiguously states that it is all God’s grace and not man’s work as you so incorrectly state that the Church teaches.
(Brother Joe) It is taught by the Catholic Church that an individual can merit or earn eternal life by good works as your catechism says.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes, but only by doing God’s will by corroborating with God’s grace which the Church teaches is all God’s work and not mans.
(Brother Joe) Also in your catechism on page 448 you can read, "...and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished..." (Catechism para # 1821)
(Cristoiglesia) Let’s see what the Catechism says in total:
1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.
92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"
93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."
94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:
Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.
This is clearly consistent with the rest of the Catechism in that it still states that it is entirely God’s grace and work in us by the Holy Spirit that produces good works and that for this merit man can take no credit.
I think that the greatest problem that some have in understanding these things is that they do not realize the power of God’s grace in corroboration with man’s free will to gain merit. God creates a great work in us with His grace and everything we accomplish towards sanctification is due to the undeserved gift of grace.
Another difficulty Protestant have is understanding that salvation is a process ending in death and is dependent on the state of the soul at that time. If the soul is filled with salvific grace then one is saved and not by a one time work of man. Instead the Protestants teach that one confesses, repents and acknowledges God and by these acts creates an obligation by God to save us. Protestants teach assurance or eternal security as the result of this personal act that endures for all time regardless of one’s sins or falling away from the faith. This is what is known as the heresy of Antinomianism. This is an ancient heresy spoken of and condemned in Scriptures and is actually resurgence in Gnosticism which is spoken about in the following verses by St. Paul:
Rom 3:8 And not rather (as we are slandered and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil that there may come good? Whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:31 Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words. For because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the children of unbelief.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error:
2Pe 2:19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.
God Bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Show me in the Bible or in the Catechism where the Church teaches that the atonement is not sufficient.
Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one must do works to be saved.
Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one can be saved by works without faith.
(Brother Joe) You should read your catechism. It says on page 490, para # 2027 the following.
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we CAN then MERIT FOR OURSELVES AND FOR OTHERS all the graces needed to attain ETERNAL LIFE, as well as necessary temporal goods." (Catechism page 490, para # 2027)
...we can then merit (EARN) for ourselves... all the graces needed to attain eternal life...
(Cristoiglesia) Let us look at your claim in context from the Catechism:
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God.
Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
Here we see the Catechism saying that we are united to Christ through His atoning sacrifice. This contradicts your allegation that the Church teaches that the Passion and Resurrection are insufficient but instead it is an integral part of the salvific plan.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.
Here the Catechism says that the entirety of salvation is due to Christ’s atoning work and not of man.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
Here the Catechism is recognizing mans free will but that it is the grace of God that gives us the desire to do God’s will and His work.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
Here the Catechism clearly states that it is only because of God’s grace that man collaborates and that it is only through God’s grace that man can earn merit.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
Here we see that the merit that is earned is the work of the Holy Spirit and not of man. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit man would not be moved to good works which indeed is provided by God’s grace.
2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D).
2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).
Goal#1- Show me in the Bible or in the Catechism where the Church teaches that the atonement is not sufficient.
You were unable from the Catechism to prove that the Church teaches that the atonement of Christ is not sufficient and such an allegation is contradicted by Catechism #2017.
Goal #2- Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one must do works to be saved.
Catechism #2020 says that it is all God’s work and not mans. Catechism #2022 says it is wholly the work of the Holy Spirit that gives us the desire to do God’s work. So you have failed here also to prove your allegations as it clearly states that all good works are evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are entirely God’s doing and not mans.
Goal #3- Show me in the Bible or the Catechism where the Church teaches that one can be saved by works without faith.
The Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. Catechism #2025 states that ALL merit comes from God and not from man. So what it is teaching is that by corroborating with the Holy Spirit by our own free will we gain merit for ourselves and others and that we could not corroborate in the first place if it was not for God’s grace that brings us to initial salvation. So the Catechism unambiguously states that it is all God’s grace and not man’s work as you so incorrectly state that the Church teaches.
(Brother Joe) It is taught by the Catholic Church that an individual can merit or earn eternal life by good works as your catechism says.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes, but only by doing God’s will by corroborating with God’s grace which the Church teaches is all God’s work and not mans.
(Brother Joe) Also in your catechism on page 448 you can read, "...and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished..." (Catechism para # 1821)
(Cristoiglesia) Let’s see what the Catechism says in total:
1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.
92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"
93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."
94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:
Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.
This is clearly consistent with the rest of the Catechism in that it still states that it is entirely God’s grace and work in us by the Holy Spirit that produces good works and that for this merit man can take no credit.
I think that the greatest problem that some have in understanding these things is that they do not realize the power of God’s grace in corroboration with man’s free will to gain merit. God creates a great work in us with His grace and everything we accomplish towards sanctification is due to the undeserved gift of grace.
Another difficulty Protestant have is understanding that salvation is a process ending in death and is dependent on the state of the soul at that time. If the soul is filled with salvific grace then one is saved and not by a one time work of man. Instead the Protestants teach that one confesses, repents and acknowledges God and by these acts creates an obligation by God to save us. Protestants teach assurance or eternal security as the result of this personal act that endures for all time regardless of one’s sins or falling away from the faith. This is what is known as the heresy of Antinomianism. This is an ancient heresy spoken of and condemned in Scriptures and is actually resurgence in Gnosticism which is spoken about in the following verses by St. Paul:
Rom 3:8 And not rather (as we are slandered and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil that there may come good? Whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:31 Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words. For because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the children of unbelief.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error:
2Pe 2:19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.
God Bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
15 August, 2009
Discussion with Ernie about the definition of Church
(Ernie) From your response to my posting, are you saying that only Catholics are true Christians, and all others, such as Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and others who have accepted Jesus as Lord are not Christians?
(Cristoiglesia) No, that is not what I said or what I meant. Protestant Christians regardless of the label they put on themselves may be Christians but are not exposed to the fullness of truth taught by Jesus and the disciples nor do they desire it. They even reject God’s grace contained in the Sacraments. So they are nominal Christians at best. Even so the Church teaches and believes that even some of those who reject the Church that Jesus and the disciples founded may have salvific grace at their death as Jesus may save whom He wishes and only He knows one’s heart. However, even those will be saved through His Church and not without His Church.
(Ernie) The true Church does not carry a label like Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or otherwise, but the true Church are composed of born again children of God, and spread around the world.
(Cristoiglesia) I guess the veracity of your statement rests on the definition of the Church which is taught in the Bible, and is represented by Patristic and historical evidence. That can only be one Church which is the Catholic Church. I believe you are confusing two things the visible and the invisible Church. This is from elsewhere in my blog:
The invisible Church are those who have faith in our Lord but one cannot discern who are a part of His invisible Church. However, Jesus and the disciples founded a visible Church and we see the formation of that Church in the book of Acts. This Church is the Catholic Church and is the self-same Church that Jesus prayed that we would all be one within. Otherwise as professed Christians and not being obedient to His Church would place us outside of His will, blessings, promises and grace; if not fully but in great measure. Those outside of His will would be those that some describe as "playing" at Christianity and not following Jesus.
There are some outside of the visible Church which some call a "remnant" that are not be on the path to the narrow gate but may be saved by God's mercy. These are those who seek God but are deceived into being outside of His visible Church by no fault of their own. While not a part of the visible Church they can be considered a part of the invisible Church. So, Jesus and the disciples formed a visible Church as we see after Pentecost recorded in the book of Acts and it could be said that there are those known only to God who are a part of that visible Church against their will or knowledge that will be received in Glory to be a part of the Church Triumphant. But, as one can see in Scripture this is not the ordinary way to be saved through His Church but as an extraordinary example of His mercy.
The gates of hell will never prevail against His visible Church because of the protection of the Church by the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The Church is other worldly and heavenly in its nature and is endowed with its holiness and veracity from its founder Jesus. Jesus gave His promises to His visible Church so that the world could see the testimony of His Church as the pillar and ground of the truth and a shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) It is the will of God that all should be saved by and through His Church as it is the Church that was commissioned to spread the Gospel throughout the world both corporeally and individually. The Church is a refuge and the Ark from the sins and temptations of the world. It is heaven on earth where Christ dwells in the Tabernacles and is worshipped. So if the visible Church ceased to exist it would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Messiah and Savior of the world because all of His promises would be proven false.
Unity requires that there be a knowledge and physical manifestation of that unity. That is the Catholic Church which is the visible Church. The invisible Church does not represent unity because it is known only to God which may be unified in faith but not in purpose.
The purpose of the Church is its testimony in spreading the "good news" to the world. That requires a visible unity. The world will never know if those who are in the invisible Church are preserved but the visible Church will always be the witness to the world that it remains after empires and governments have fallen, political ideologies have been born and died and false and counterfeit religions have come and gone. It is a testimony that Jesus is God of the Trinity and that His will be done on earth as well as in heaven regardless of the snares of Satan and His lies against humanity.
(Ernie) Only those churches who do not preach and teach about the blood of Jesus, His death, burial, and resurrection, and Him being the Son of God, or having to be born again to be the children of God, are false churches. What do you say?
(Cristoiglesia) I say that your definition of the Church is unbiblical and is based more on optimism than on a foundation of truth.
You see, those who reject Christ’s Church and are in protest and denial of its very existence are caught in the snare of Satan by their own desires and prideful arrogance. Jesus taught about this in His prophetic teaching:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
What is God’s will in regards to His Church? He tells us specifically that we are to be one in unity with His Church which can only be described as the Catholic Church:
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) No, that is not what I said or what I meant. Protestant Christians regardless of the label they put on themselves may be Christians but are not exposed to the fullness of truth taught by Jesus and the disciples nor do they desire it. They even reject God’s grace contained in the Sacraments. So they are nominal Christians at best. Even so the Church teaches and believes that even some of those who reject the Church that Jesus and the disciples founded may have salvific grace at their death as Jesus may save whom He wishes and only He knows one’s heart. However, even those will be saved through His Church and not without His Church.
(Ernie) The true Church does not carry a label like Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or otherwise, but the true Church are composed of born again children of God, and spread around the world.
(Cristoiglesia) I guess the veracity of your statement rests on the definition of the Church which is taught in the Bible, and is represented by Patristic and historical evidence. That can only be one Church which is the Catholic Church. I believe you are confusing two things the visible and the invisible Church. This is from elsewhere in my blog:
The invisible Church are those who have faith in our Lord but one cannot discern who are a part of His invisible Church. However, Jesus and the disciples founded a visible Church and we see the formation of that Church in the book of Acts. This Church is the Catholic Church and is the self-same Church that Jesus prayed that we would all be one within. Otherwise as professed Christians and not being obedient to His Church would place us outside of His will, blessings, promises and grace; if not fully but in great measure. Those outside of His will would be those that some describe as "playing" at Christianity and not following Jesus.
There are some outside of the visible Church which some call a "remnant" that are not be on the path to the narrow gate but may be saved by God's mercy. These are those who seek God but are deceived into being outside of His visible Church by no fault of their own. While not a part of the visible Church they can be considered a part of the invisible Church. So, Jesus and the disciples formed a visible Church as we see after Pentecost recorded in the book of Acts and it could be said that there are those known only to God who are a part of that visible Church against their will or knowledge that will be received in Glory to be a part of the Church Triumphant. But, as one can see in Scripture this is not the ordinary way to be saved through His Church but as an extraordinary example of His mercy.
The gates of hell will never prevail against His visible Church because of the protection of the Church by the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The Church is other worldly and heavenly in its nature and is endowed with its holiness and veracity from its founder Jesus. Jesus gave His promises to His visible Church so that the world could see the testimony of His Church as the pillar and ground of the truth and a shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) It is the will of God that all should be saved by and through His Church as it is the Church that was commissioned to spread the Gospel throughout the world both corporeally and individually. The Church is a refuge and the Ark from the sins and temptations of the world. It is heaven on earth where Christ dwells in the Tabernacles and is worshipped. So if the visible Church ceased to exist it would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Messiah and Savior of the world because all of His promises would be proven false.
Unity requires that there be a knowledge and physical manifestation of that unity. That is the Catholic Church which is the visible Church. The invisible Church does not represent unity because it is known only to God which may be unified in faith but not in purpose.
The purpose of the Church is its testimony in spreading the "good news" to the world. That requires a visible unity. The world will never know if those who are in the invisible Church are preserved but the visible Church will always be the witness to the world that it remains after empires and governments have fallen, political ideologies have been born and died and false and counterfeit religions have come and gone. It is a testimony that Jesus is God of the Trinity and that His will be done on earth as well as in heaven regardless of the snares of Satan and His lies against humanity.
(Ernie) Only those churches who do not preach and teach about the blood of Jesus, His death, burial, and resurrection, and Him being the Son of God, or having to be born again to be the children of God, are false churches. What do you say?
(Cristoiglesia) I say that your definition of the Church is unbiblical and is based more on optimism than on a foundation of truth.
You see, those who reject Christ’s Church and are in protest and denial of its very existence are caught in the snare of Satan by their own desires and prideful arrogance. Jesus taught about this in His prophetic teaching:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
What is God’s will in regards to His Church? He tells us specifically that we are to be one in unity with His Church which can only be described as the Catholic Church:
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)