(Laurel W) Why should chronological order matter so much? My church is my church, your church is your church. Chronological order doesn't change the truth
Our teaching regarding the apostasy is that there were pockets who still had the basic truth and ideas left. So yes, it fell away after the last apostle died. But it was made official with the Council of Nicaea.
(Cristoiglesia) The reason that chronological order matters is because of your claim that the Church fell into apostasy immediately after the death of the last disciple. If there is any veracity of your claim there should be some proof, otherwise it is just idle gossip.
There is only one Church founded by Jesus and the disciples and Jesus promised that this Church called the Catholic Church would endure for all times free from apostasy. So according to Jesus, your “church” must be a false Church as it is certainly not the original Church founded by Jesus. Making an unsubstantiated claim does not make a truth either but if you make a claim of a specific time in history then chronological order does matter and needs to be substantiated.
Who exactly were these “pockets” who still had the basic truths and what do you allege were the basic truths and ideas that were lost? How and why were they lost? What was “made official” at the ecumenical Council of Nicaea and who are the officials?
(Laurel W) One leader who remained a leader, yes. Now, there are a few who apostatized. Those of course were not the actual presidents of the church, like Alexander was. That man was absolutely evil.
(Cristoiglesia) We do not have “presidents” in the Catholic Church. Such terms for leadership are secular and worldly and not of the leadership established by Jesus. I agree that this man was probably evil, at least the Church teaches that he was but in what way is this the cause of or evidence that supports your claim of apostasy of the Church. You do realize also that he was Pope many centuries after you claim the Church fell into apostasy. Who are the few that apostatized? Do you have any in the first century when you say this occurred?
(Laurel W) Now, regarding Joseph Smith, you have a tendency to place him in the position of Christ for us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our veracity is on Christ, but Joseph Smith was his prophet, like Moses and Abraham. And just as Moses and Abraham pointed forward to Christ, but led the church in their day, Joseph Smith pointed back to Christ, but led the church in his day. God intended prophets for the earth when his son was not on it. God did not give Adam the instructions for the ark, but intended that for Noah and his day. The same holds true. God has prophets today who are meant to lead for today. Many of the problems we face now are not the problems faced by the people Christ taught. He has called prophets to lead the church in this day. You really like to twist words, don't you. Of course Jesus is not evil.
(Cristoiglesia) It was you that suggested that Jesus was incompetent in establishing His Church and instead of His Church enduring for all times, remaining free from apostasy and continuing as the “pillar and foundation of the truth” you claim that Jesus failed in all of these promises and that Joseph Smith corrected all of the errors of Jesus and restored what was lost as a result of Jesus’ incompetence or lies. Is that not the position of you and the Mormon sect? That is my understanding from your statements and the statements of your Church in regards to the supposed apostasy.
Isn’t this the logical conclusion as to yours and Mormon claims and not the twisting of words? If Jesus really did mislead the first century Church as you claim and give them false promises why would this not be evil? Why would this be a false conclusion to your claims?
(Laurel W) And as far as sinners, I'm not talking about sinners in the church. Everyone is a sinner. But the exceedingly gross sins which Alexander had were sheer evil. If he had even been a bishop, that would have been understandable to some degree. But he was the actual head of the Catholic church--the one you have replaced prophets with.
(Cristoiglesia) We have not replaced prophets with anyone. We do not see or teach that the Pope is a prophet. Anyone can have the gift of prophecy whether lay or clergy and many have throughout the 2000 year history of the Church.
(Laurel W) Our church can claim to be Christ's church. We have scripture, both ancient and modern. God has not ceased to speak to man.
(Cristoiglesia) You can claim anything but you must have some proof either Scriptural, Patristic or historical. You have none. Jesus founded only one Church and it is the Church which has endured for 2000 years the Catholic Church.
(Laurel W) Regarding gods and being the children of God, there are many, many scriptures: Deut 14: 1, Psalms 82: 6, John 10: 34, Acts 17: 29, Rom. 8: 16 . . . there are others if you'd like.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes, and they refer to the familial relationship that we have with God but in no way suggest that we can become Gods ourselves. We are created creatures as are the angels. God is uncreated. We cannot become God’s regardless of what Satan told Eve in the Garden and Joseph Smith tells the Mormons.
(Laurel W) Once more, you are twisting words. I guess I shouldn't get surprised with that by now. No, we will never become God. We will become gods (lowercase g), not by disobeying him, but by following him. However, we needed to exist in person for that to happen. That could not have happened if Adam and Eve stayed in the garden. Also, we do need the experiences of learning the good from the evil. That of course comes most often through experience.
(Cristoiglesia) How am I twisting words? I understand that you teach that one does not become “the” God that you call Father but that one progresses to become a God exactly like our Father and populate our own world where we are worshipped like our Father was worshipped. Is that about right? How did sin make it possible for man to exist in your doctrine?
(Laurel W) Again regarding Sidney: the "evidence" that you are suggesting is completely fabricated. I actually have gotten this evidence from multiple sources: church history, and even secular things. Look it up. Even on the internet, the story is clear. Your sources are made up. They did not know each other since 1820. If they had, Sidney would have absolutely not conspired to set up a 14 year old farmboy as a religious leader. He would have led himself. So this "evidence" is not only false, it makes no sense whatsoever.
(Cristoiglesia) Actually I did look it up and there is more than one source that supports an earlier acquaintance between the two than 1830. There is only one source, a Mormon leader that refutes the other testimony.
(Laurel W) There is scriptural evidence suggesting the apostasy. My favorite one in in 2 Thes 2: 3. He is talking about the everlasting church. But there will be a falling away first. That prophecy is in the New Testament. There are many others, much of which talks about the breakup of the church.
(Cristoiglesia) Here is the verse that you say supports your view:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
This is speaking of the coming of the antichrist. St. Paul was speaking to believers trying to assure them to continue in their faith and their mission to preach the Gospel and that those who claimed that the coming of the antichrist was imminent were false teachers. It was not in any way a prophesy of an eminent apostasy but instead it was the opposite teaching being an assurance of the truth taught by the Church and that apostasy was not imminent. This verse actually speaks against Mormon claims to the contrary. This verse speaks of unity and not division.
(Laurel W) There is evidence. Read Joseph Smith's account of the first vision, as well as the many other accounts given. There is evidence by many prophets, not just him. You can call us anything you want, but that does not take away the veracity or the fact that we are in very deed Christian in the truest sense of the word.
(Cristoiglesia) The visions of a false prophet mean nothing to Christians. Christians believe in the Trinitarian God and that we serve God instead of becoming Gods. We are monotheistic instead of henotheistic.
(Laurel W) The New Testament was not written by the Catholic church. By Christians, yes. By Catholics, no. You have a tendency to mix those two up, when in reality they are very different. Catholicism is simply a sect of Christianity, as is Mormonism. Now, the monks of the Catholic church did copy and pass down the scriptures. But you cannot claim authorship of the New Testament.
(Cristoiglesia) Well yes, it was written by the Church as all the Church in the first century were Catholic Christians. It is written about the Catholic Church in formation, faith and practice. Since there were no other Christians how can you say that we did not write the New Testament Scriptures? It seems as you are the one mixed up unless you can find some other Christ followers outside of the Church in the first few decades of the Church. For us to be different thee has to be something that we are different than but reality is that we were the only ones. Unless someone else wrote them unknown in history it is reasonable to claim that we are the one wince all Scriptural, Patristic and historical evidence points to the fact that we are the only Christians at this time.
(Laurel W) We have every claim as Christian, and as the true church. We are no man-made pretenders. Our claims are to angels and to the appearance of Christ himself. Joseph Smith has never taught any of our doctrine except through revelation. He was a very humble man and a follower of Christ, as shown by him recording the revelations which chastened him specifically, and that he had seen him and been led by him.
(Cristoiglesia) Your Church is founded by Joseph Smith. That makes your sect a man made church. There is not Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence that proves your sect to be the true Church. Instead all the preceding evidence points to the Catholic Church as the true Church. You tacitly acknowledge this but claim that the true Church founded by Jesus fell away contradicting His promises to humanity.
Let us be sensible, if I claimed to have been visited by angels, the disciples and Jesus would you believe me just on my testimony? If I claimed to be a prophet would you automatically believe my prophesies? Nowhere in his teaching is Joseph Smith a follower of Christ but by founding a counterfeit to Christ’s Church he makes himself a enemy to Christ.
(Laurel W) Lets say this. When we die, if you realize Moroni existed and find that he indeed was an angel and that he was sent down to earth to Joseph Smith, you will recognize the error of your ways, and will join my church. If I die and find no such person existed, I will do the same only vice versa. Can you agree to that? Of course, since Moroni did exist and was an angel, there is no contest there.
(Cristoiglesia) Your claims are theologically impossible. I will be judged as all persons by my faith. There will be no second chance for you or I. You deny what Christ created for a man made counterfeit which is the epitome of the false teaching warned against in Scriptures. It has all the marks of being from a satanic source as it parallels the first temptation of Eve yet you believe in the false teaching and reject Christ’s only Church. So no agreement is possible as God is a God of Justice and we are judged according to our faith and if that faith is not true then our eternity is in great doubt except for God’s mercy. Are you willing to wager your eternity on the prophecies of one man who by his teaching denies the very veracity of Christ? That is the question that you need to continually ask yourself and not on some after death revelation or realization that what you have been taught is false. Believe Christ in what He taught about His Church and not in what Joseph Smith taught out of pridefulness and a quest for power and wealth.
(Laurel W) The same goes with being exalted. I do not think that our only purpose is to worship, unless by worship you include progress, create and work with the Savior.
(Cristoiglesia) I know you do not believe that we are to worship and serve God only. You have made this clear that you believe that we are to be exalted and become Gods ourselves. I realize that we do not replace God in your view but that we become another God and our sons become another God and so on through countless progressions. I understand. I just do not find any support for such a teaching in Scriptures, Patristic teaching or history. In fact such teaching is opposed to the evidence from these sources.
(Laurel W) Satan wanted to actually replace God, there lies the difference.
(Cristoiglesia) Here is what the Scriptures say:
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle tha any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise?
Gen 3:2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:5 clearly says that what Satan promised was that we would have the same knowledge as God making man and specifically Eve God’s equal.
Satan never tempted Eve by saying that she would be God’s replacement.
(Laurel W) By being exalted through the Savior, we do not replace him, but add to his glory. An example which I can use since I believe in a very real sense that God is our Father, but having a bunch of grandchildren only adds to the glory of a person. It does not take away from it. Now, if someone wanted to actually take over and replace the father, that is a completely different story (evil, not to mention impossible). That is what Satan wanted. That is a huge difference from what we believe and teach that we can become. What we do will add to the glory of the Father, not take it. To be honest, I believe that is the form of worship he would prefer. I know at least with me, I wouldn't want my children (if I had them) to hang around my home praising me their entire lives. I would want them to make something of themselves, and to have families of their own.
Again, God bless.
(Cristoiglesia) Of course you defense is adding worldly attributes and feelings to God. We were created to serve and worship God and for no other reasons Revealed to man. According to the Scriptures the highest one can be exalted is to serve the Lord on earth or in heaven.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne and to the Lamb, benediction and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever.
What is desired is a carnal and worldly desire coming from the deepest and most decadent depths of ones soul. It is truly the fruit of a reprobate soul to desire such exaltation and to become the worshipped instead of the worshipper or the Lord instead of the servant. May the Lord have mercy on those so deceived. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
27 August, 2009
25 August, 2009
Discussion with Laurel W who claims the Catholic Church is apostate
(Laurel W) We will have to simply disagree about the angels.
(Cristoiglesia) OK
(Laurel W) Now you're using emotional language, which is clearly not true. I do not believe in fantasy. I believe in God, and that he speaks to man. To state that my view is fantasy is not true.
(Cristoiglesia) No, I was not using emotional language but simply pointing out that the facts show that your beliefs are imagined or fanciful. There is absolutely no evidence of any apostasy.
(Laurel W) Let me point out a few things which show that there was indeed an apostasy. First, even the organization of the church shows that. Christ had apostles. Where are yours?
(Cristoiglesia) Every bishop is a descendent of an apostle through apostolic succession. But, using the definition that encompasses all who are sent to preach the Gospel all of the members of the Church are sent at each Mass to preach the Gospel so all Catholic Christians are apostles. When you see a Catholic Christian you are seeing a apostle whether sacerdotal or lay.
(Laurel W) Christ went to temples, where are yours?
(Cristoiglesia) The Jewish temple was destroyed in 70AD. I will give you the same explanation as St. Paul:
1Co 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
(Laurel W) Peter was a prophet, not a pope. Christ never had a pope. Surely the church of Christ would have the same organization which he himself established?
(Cristoiglesia) Wrong, St. Peter was chosen by Jesus as the leader of the disciples and in so doing established the papal office:
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Where in the Scriptures does it say that Joseph Smith is a prophet.
(Laurel W) There are other things. For instance, I doubt that Christ would ever condone the selling of indulgences.
(Cristoiglesia) You just jumped ahead of yourself about 1400 years after you said the Church fell into apostasy. Let’s try to keep your accusations chronological and topical instead of jumping around over the continuous 2000 year history of the Church which actually supports my view of the enduring Church. But for the record….why are you opposed to indulgencies.
(Laurel W) His ministry was a lay ministry.
(Cristoiglesia) No, Jesus is the high priest:
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus:
Heb 4:14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
(Laurel W) Nor do I believe that sin is forgiven by simply saying "Hail Mary" a certain number of times, and then going and doing whatever you please. True repentance includes a change, and a change of the heart.
(Cristoiglesia) What made you think that Catholic Christians believe or that the Church teaches that one is saved by saying prayers or quoting Scriptures which is the Hail Mary statement of St. Gabriel to the blessed mother? What is this about doing “whatever you please”? Catholics believe that true contrition is required for forgiveness and not prayers of oneself or others or the recitation of Scripture. Confession is to the Catholic Christian a reconciliation back into the family of God after repenting with a contrite heart of a sin that has separated one from the familial relationship with God.
(Laurel W) No, the Catholic church is not the one that Christ established.
(Cristoiglesia) I am easy to convince if you can show me from the Scriptures, history or Patristic evidence that there was a Church other than the Catholic Church founded by Jesus and the disciples in the first century.
(Laurel W) It has fallen far from his truth.
(Cristoiglesia) Please show me the same standard of proof to your claim …..Scriptures, Patristic or historical evidence please and not just fanciful speculation.
(Laurel W) Many of our differences lie in what you say is the "Miracle of Nicea." To us, that is where the apostasy took full swing. Those who had the truth about the nature of the Godhead were cast out, and instead of the plain and simple truth, men were led to believe in a very impersonable diety which is completely beyond the capabililty of man to comprehend.
(Cristoiglesia) I thought that Mormon teaching is that Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church fell into apostasy immediately after the death of the last disciple. Am I incorrect in this understanding? Do you teach instead that it occurred at the Council of Nicaea?
The Council of Nicaea was convened to discuss the Arian heresy that denied the divinity of Christ and thus the veracity of His salvific work. If Jesus was not divine then He could not have been the Lamb of God or the Messiah prophesied making Him an impostor and pretender as the Messiah. Athanasius the young deacon, inspired by the Holy Spirit, successfully defended the ongoing teaching of the Church as God being the Trinitarian God protecting the orthodox belief that Jesus is God. The original teaching of the Church as to the nature of God was preserved at Nicaea instead of being cast out. Arius represented heterodoxy and heresy.
I do not know what you mean by defining the Trinity as an impersonal deity but indeed, fully understanding the creator of all things is beyond the capabilities of man. The Athanasian Creed is a great explanation of the Trinitarian Godhead.
(Laurel W) Many of the leaders of your church, such as Pope Alexander VI, are proof that the Catholic church had fallen from the truth. How could the leader of Christ's true church behave in such a way? Simply put, because it had indeed fallen into apostasy. Now, the Catholic church still had some truths. The very fact that they believed in Christ was certainly better than not believing in him. But the Catholic church is very far from Christ's true church.
(Cristoiglesia) What truth did He fall from specifically? He was probably an evil man and there were probably others. So, are you willing to hold your sect to the same standard. If I were to find one leader or more in your sect that has done evil things then does that destroy the veracity of your sect? Your sect is based on the veracity of one man Joseph Smith your founder. The Catholic Church is based not on the veracity of any mere man but on the veracity of the God/man Jesus. Show me that Jesus is evil and you will have evidence for your apostasy but since He is God then you cannot use a sinful man and then say that he represents the veracity of the Church which is Christ’s Church and not mans. Why are you even surprised that there are sinners within the Church? Show me a man that claims no sin and I will show you an egregious liar. Christ’s Church the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth. Again, show me another Church that can claim to be Christ’s Church with Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence.
(Laurel W) Now, as far as our beliefs. We believe that we were not only created by him, but that we are literally his spirit children. That is not "uncreating" as you say it is. It is glorifying. In the same way that a boy can grow to be a man, a righteous man, through the Savior, can become a god. Now, that being said, God will always be our God. We will always worship him and have a good relationship with him. A father does not loose the fact that he is a father simply because his son had a child of his own.
(Cristoiglesia) No, this is not the teaching of Jesus, the disciples or the Church. The teaching of the Church and Christianity is that the Trinitarian God created all things. It does not teach anything about “spirit children”, becoming deities (Satan’s original lie in the Garden that deceived man and caused the fall). These beliefs are totally contrary to the teaching of Scriptures or the disciples. This is just fanciful theology with no basis in factual teaching.
(Laurel W) There is another discrepancy between our faiths, in whether what happened in the Garden of Eden was necessary or not. We believe it was. If that had not happened, we believe that we ourselves would have never existed. The fall of man was a necessary step in our coming to earth and gaining salvation. True, Eve was deceived by Satan. As well as using lies, Satan takes truths and twist them into half truths. Or even to take truths and twist them to his own purposes. This is what happened in the garden. He used a truth, or half-truth, to accomplish what he thought were his own purposes and designs. But try as he might to frustrate the plan of God, he unwittingly actually brought about some of God's purposes, in making it possible for us to come to earth.
(Cristoiglesia) This is one of the most amusing of the false teaching of the Mormon faith. Let’s see the logic here; God used Satan to teach the Mormon “truth” that we will become God if we disobey God. Do you really expect people to believe this?
(Laurel W) Once more, you are wrong with Sidney. It is possible you could be confusing him with Oliver Cowdry, who served as a scribe to Joseph Smith for part of the time he was translating the Book of Mormon. But Sidney definitely did not know Joseph prior to 1830 as you claim. The evidence is all pointing to that. He was a renowned Cambellite minister. In 1821, he was in Pittsburg. In 1826, he was in Ohio. Joseph Smith was in New York the entire time. Sidney was introduced to the church by Parley P. Pratt, who was then going to preach to the lamanites. Sidney read the BoM and was converted. He then traveled to NY to meet Joseph Smith. And besides, why would a renouned preacher like Sidney Rigdon fabircate something to make a 14-24 year old the head of a church? No, someone like Sidney would have put himself in charge.
(Cristoiglesia) You get all of this from the testimony of one Mormon. But the evidence suggests strongly and somewhat convincingly from several witnesses that they knew each other at least from 1820.
(Laurel W) You know I am not placing Joseph Smith on the same level as Jesus. Joseph Smith is on the same level as Peter, or Moses, or any other prophet. He is a prophet that was called. Just as any prophet was called. Christ made no errors. He never has, nor will he ever. He is the only begotten of the father, and the only perfect person on the face of the earth. He is our Lord and Savior. He is perfect, but those who followed him were not. They were the ones who fell, not him. You are once more twisting my words to make them sound like I am saying something which I am not. Because I believe the Catholic church to not be true, you say that I do not believe Christ to be true. Well, clearly you are lying there, and I think you know it.
(Cristoiglesia) You seem to be trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. On the one hand you claim that the Church founded by Jesus fell into apostasy despite what Jesus promised about that Church which was that it would endure until the Parousia, never fall into apostasy and remain for all times the “Pillar and foundation of the truth”. Either Jesus told the truth and made no errors or the Church is apostate. You cannot have it both ways. He either told the truth or He is an incompetent liar. Reading Scripture as evidence clearly it is your Church that lies.
(Laurel W) Our "sect" is not manmade. Christ personally leads it. I believe that the leaders of our church are visited by Christ personally, and that he guides this church, not as an absentee, but as its actual head. The very name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, shows that we are indeed the church of Christ, and of his people. This is the church which Christ founded. It is closer to his church than yours is, that's for sure. It has the same organization which he set up. It follows his teachings. You cannot claim that about the Catholic Church.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes it is, your founder is Joseph Smith. There is no evidence that Christ leads your sect or has visited your leaders. You can call your Church anything you want but that does not give it veracity or make it Christian. There is absolutely no evidence that Christ founded any Church except the Catholic Church. Do you realize that the New Testament Scriptures are written by the Catholic Church and are about the Church? It is , so denying that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus is denying the written Word of
God. Your sect vaguely resembles the true Church and is simply a counterfeit church created on the doctrines of devils. You have no claim as Christian must less as the true church.
(Laurel W) We will have to disagree about if there was an Angel Moroni and gold plates. Clearly I believe it, clearly you do not. As the LDS, we believe that God continues to reveal his wor
Your church may disagree with me, but the bible does not. Many parts of it point to there being more of the Word of God out there. Many prophecies, particularly those from Isaiah and other prophets (let alone Christ's own prophecies), point to Christ ministering to other people, point to other prophets and prophecies being joined with the bible to further ones testimony of Christ.
And truth be told, why would God limit his word to one book, or even to one people? He had people on the earth other than the Jews. They deserved to hear his word just as much as the Jews did.
(Cristoiglesia) We do not have to disagree, I am a reasonable man show me the Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence for your claims.
Jesus gave one teaching authority on earth and that is His Church and not a man-made pretender. If you have evidence show it and I will respond to specifics and not vague generalities.
(Laurel W) In conclusion, I know that Christ lives, physically as well as spiritually. I know he is our Savior, and the only means wherein we can gain exaltation. I know that God loves us, enough that he sent his son down to atone for our sins. He loves and knows us personally. I have felt Him in my life, and I know he is real. I see every day proof of his tender mercies. And I know that he has shown me so many more mercies which I haven't seen or recognized. Every moment we live in his debt. He loves us deeply. I'm sure he often weeps at what he sees his children doing. He wants so much for us. But he loves us enough to let us become who we are, to prove to ourselves who we are and where we stand. To give us the agency to choose who we will follow. Me, I will follow him.
God bless you in your quest for truth.
Sincerely,
Laurel Jean Wilder
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your commentary. I take a few exceptions to your last paragraph. Man was created to serve and worship God and not to be exalted. Being exalted is the teaching of Satan in the Garden and not of God. It is not enough to just follow Him after your own desires but instead within His will and His Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) OK
(Laurel W) Now you're using emotional language, which is clearly not true. I do not believe in fantasy. I believe in God, and that he speaks to man. To state that my view is fantasy is not true.
(Cristoiglesia) No, I was not using emotional language but simply pointing out that the facts show that your beliefs are imagined or fanciful. There is absolutely no evidence of any apostasy.
(Laurel W) Let me point out a few things which show that there was indeed an apostasy. First, even the organization of the church shows that. Christ had apostles. Where are yours?
(Cristoiglesia) Every bishop is a descendent of an apostle through apostolic succession. But, using the definition that encompasses all who are sent to preach the Gospel all of the members of the Church are sent at each Mass to preach the Gospel so all Catholic Christians are apostles. When you see a Catholic Christian you are seeing a apostle whether sacerdotal or lay.
(Laurel W) Christ went to temples, where are yours?
(Cristoiglesia) The Jewish temple was destroyed in 70AD. I will give you the same explanation as St. Paul:
1Co 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
(Laurel W) Peter was a prophet, not a pope. Christ never had a pope. Surely the church of Christ would have the same organization which he himself established?
(Cristoiglesia) Wrong, St. Peter was chosen by Jesus as the leader of the disciples and in so doing established the papal office:
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Where in the Scriptures does it say that Joseph Smith is a prophet.
(Laurel W) There are other things. For instance, I doubt that Christ would ever condone the selling of indulgences.
(Cristoiglesia) You just jumped ahead of yourself about 1400 years after you said the Church fell into apostasy. Let’s try to keep your accusations chronological and topical instead of jumping around over the continuous 2000 year history of the Church which actually supports my view of the enduring Church. But for the record….why are you opposed to indulgencies.
(Laurel W) His ministry was a lay ministry.
(Cristoiglesia) No, Jesus is the high priest:
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus:
Heb 4:14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
(Laurel W) Nor do I believe that sin is forgiven by simply saying "Hail Mary" a certain number of times, and then going and doing whatever you please. True repentance includes a change, and a change of the heart.
(Cristoiglesia) What made you think that Catholic Christians believe or that the Church teaches that one is saved by saying prayers or quoting Scriptures which is the Hail Mary statement of St. Gabriel to the blessed mother? What is this about doing “whatever you please”? Catholics believe that true contrition is required for forgiveness and not prayers of oneself or others or the recitation of Scripture. Confession is to the Catholic Christian a reconciliation back into the family of God after repenting with a contrite heart of a sin that has separated one from the familial relationship with God.
(Laurel W) No, the Catholic church is not the one that Christ established.
(Cristoiglesia) I am easy to convince if you can show me from the Scriptures, history or Patristic evidence that there was a Church other than the Catholic Church founded by Jesus and the disciples in the first century.
(Laurel W) It has fallen far from his truth.
(Cristoiglesia) Please show me the same standard of proof to your claim …..Scriptures, Patristic or historical evidence please and not just fanciful speculation.
(Laurel W) Many of our differences lie in what you say is the "Miracle of Nicea." To us, that is where the apostasy took full swing. Those who had the truth about the nature of the Godhead were cast out, and instead of the plain and simple truth, men were led to believe in a very impersonable diety which is completely beyond the capabililty of man to comprehend.
(Cristoiglesia) I thought that Mormon teaching is that Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church fell into apostasy immediately after the death of the last disciple. Am I incorrect in this understanding? Do you teach instead that it occurred at the Council of Nicaea?
The Council of Nicaea was convened to discuss the Arian heresy that denied the divinity of Christ and thus the veracity of His salvific work. If Jesus was not divine then He could not have been the Lamb of God or the Messiah prophesied making Him an impostor and pretender as the Messiah. Athanasius the young deacon, inspired by the Holy Spirit, successfully defended the ongoing teaching of the Church as God being the Trinitarian God protecting the orthodox belief that Jesus is God. The original teaching of the Church as to the nature of God was preserved at Nicaea instead of being cast out. Arius represented heterodoxy and heresy.
I do not know what you mean by defining the Trinity as an impersonal deity but indeed, fully understanding the creator of all things is beyond the capabilities of man. The Athanasian Creed is a great explanation of the Trinitarian Godhead.
(Laurel W) Many of the leaders of your church, such as Pope Alexander VI, are proof that the Catholic church had fallen from the truth. How could the leader of Christ's true church behave in such a way? Simply put, because it had indeed fallen into apostasy. Now, the Catholic church still had some truths. The very fact that they believed in Christ was certainly better than not believing in him. But the Catholic church is very far from Christ's true church.
(Cristoiglesia) What truth did He fall from specifically? He was probably an evil man and there were probably others. So, are you willing to hold your sect to the same standard. If I were to find one leader or more in your sect that has done evil things then does that destroy the veracity of your sect? Your sect is based on the veracity of one man Joseph Smith your founder. The Catholic Church is based not on the veracity of any mere man but on the veracity of the God/man Jesus. Show me that Jesus is evil and you will have evidence for your apostasy but since He is God then you cannot use a sinful man and then say that he represents the veracity of the Church which is Christ’s Church and not mans. Why are you even surprised that there are sinners within the Church? Show me a man that claims no sin and I will show you an egregious liar. Christ’s Church the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth. Again, show me another Church that can claim to be Christ’s Church with Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence.
(Laurel W) Now, as far as our beliefs. We believe that we were not only created by him, but that we are literally his spirit children. That is not "uncreating" as you say it is. It is glorifying. In the same way that a boy can grow to be a man, a righteous man, through the Savior, can become a god. Now, that being said, God will always be our God. We will always worship him and have a good relationship with him. A father does not loose the fact that he is a father simply because his son had a child of his own.
(Cristoiglesia) No, this is not the teaching of Jesus, the disciples or the Church. The teaching of the Church and Christianity is that the Trinitarian God created all things. It does not teach anything about “spirit children”, becoming deities (Satan’s original lie in the Garden that deceived man and caused the fall). These beliefs are totally contrary to the teaching of Scriptures or the disciples. This is just fanciful theology with no basis in factual teaching.
(Laurel W) There is another discrepancy between our faiths, in whether what happened in the Garden of Eden was necessary or not. We believe it was. If that had not happened, we believe that we ourselves would have never existed. The fall of man was a necessary step in our coming to earth and gaining salvation. True, Eve was deceived by Satan. As well as using lies, Satan takes truths and twist them into half truths. Or even to take truths and twist them to his own purposes. This is what happened in the garden. He used a truth, or half-truth, to accomplish what he thought were his own purposes and designs. But try as he might to frustrate the plan of God, he unwittingly actually brought about some of God's purposes, in making it possible for us to come to earth.
(Cristoiglesia) This is one of the most amusing of the false teaching of the Mormon faith. Let’s see the logic here; God used Satan to teach the Mormon “truth” that we will become God if we disobey God. Do you really expect people to believe this?
(Laurel W) Once more, you are wrong with Sidney. It is possible you could be confusing him with Oliver Cowdry, who served as a scribe to Joseph Smith for part of the time he was translating the Book of Mormon. But Sidney definitely did not know Joseph prior to 1830 as you claim. The evidence is all pointing to that. He was a renowned Cambellite minister. In 1821, he was in Pittsburg. In 1826, he was in Ohio. Joseph Smith was in New York the entire time. Sidney was introduced to the church by Parley P. Pratt, who was then going to preach to the lamanites. Sidney read the BoM and was converted. He then traveled to NY to meet Joseph Smith. And besides, why would a renouned preacher like Sidney Rigdon fabircate something to make a 14-24 year old the head of a church? No, someone like Sidney would have put himself in charge.
(Cristoiglesia) You get all of this from the testimony of one Mormon. But the evidence suggests strongly and somewhat convincingly from several witnesses that they knew each other at least from 1820.
(Laurel W) You know I am not placing Joseph Smith on the same level as Jesus. Joseph Smith is on the same level as Peter, or Moses, or any other prophet. He is a prophet that was called. Just as any prophet was called. Christ made no errors. He never has, nor will he ever. He is the only begotten of the father, and the only perfect person on the face of the earth. He is our Lord and Savior. He is perfect, but those who followed him were not. They were the ones who fell, not him. You are once more twisting my words to make them sound like I am saying something which I am not. Because I believe the Catholic church to not be true, you say that I do not believe Christ to be true. Well, clearly you are lying there, and I think you know it.
(Cristoiglesia) You seem to be trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. On the one hand you claim that the Church founded by Jesus fell into apostasy despite what Jesus promised about that Church which was that it would endure until the Parousia, never fall into apostasy and remain for all times the “Pillar and foundation of the truth”. Either Jesus told the truth and made no errors or the Church is apostate. You cannot have it both ways. He either told the truth or He is an incompetent liar. Reading Scripture as evidence clearly it is your Church that lies.
(Laurel W) Our "sect" is not manmade. Christ personally leads it. I believe that the leaders of our church are visited by Christ personally, and that he guides this church, not as an absentee, but as its actual head. The very name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, shows that we are indeed the church of Christ, and of his people. This is the church which Christ founded. It is closer to his church than yours is, that's for sure. It has the same organization which he set up. It follows his teachings. You cannot claim that about the Catholic Church.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes it is, your founder is Joseph Smith. There is no evidence that Christ leads your sect or has visited your leaders. You can call your Church anything you want but that does not give it veracity or make it Christian. There is absolutely no evidence that Christ founded any Church except the Catholic Church. Do you realize that the New Testament Scriptures are written by the Catholic Church and are about the Church? It is , so denying that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus is denying the written Word of
God. Your sect vaguely resembles the true Church and is simply a counterfeit church created on the doctrines of devils. You have no claim as Christian must less as the true church.
(Laurel W) We will have to disagree about if there was an Angel Moroni and gold plates. Clearly I believe it, clearly you do not. As the LDS, we believe that God continues to reveal his wor
Your church may disagree with me, but the bible does not. Many parts of it point to there being more of the Word of God out there. Many prophecies, particularly those from Isaiah and other prophets (let alone Christ's own prophecies), point to Christ ministering to other people, point to other prophets and prophecies being joined with the bible to further ones testimony of Christ.
And truth be told, why would God limit his word to one book, or even to one people? He had people on the earth other than the Jews. They deserved to hear his word just as much as the Jews did.
(Cristoiglesia) We do not have to disagree, I am a reasonable man show me the Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence for your claims.
Jesus gave one teaching authority on earth and that is His Church and not a man-made pretender. If you have evidence show it and I will respond to specifics and not vague generalities.
(Laurel W) In conclusion, I know that Christ lives, physically as well as spiritually. I know he is our Savior, and the only means wherein we can gain exaltation. I know that God loves us, enough that he sent his son down to atone for our sins. He loves and knows us personally. I have felt Him in my life, and I know he is real. I see every day proof of his tender mercies. And I know that he has shown me so many more mercies which I haven't seen or recognized. Every moment we live in his debt. He loves us deeply. I'm sure he often weeps at what he sees his children doing. He wants so much for us. But he loves us enough to let us become who we are, to prove to ourselves who we are and where we stand. To give us the agency to choose who we will follow. Me, I will follow him.
God bless you in your quest for truth.
Sincerely,
Laurel Jean Wilder
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your commentary. I take a few exceptions to your last paragraph. Man was created to serve and worship God and not to be exalted. Being exalted is the teaching of Satan in the Garden and not of God. It is not enough to just follow Him after your own desires but instead within His will and His Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
24 August, 2009
Discussion with Laurel W about the Mormon claim of the fall of the Catholic Church into apostasy
(Laurel W) Angels: We are not the same creatures NOW. Even you stated that Christ became man, lower than the angels. We become angels, not are them.
(Cristoiglesia) No, it is impossible for us to become angels as the Scriptures I have already provided attest. Angels are separate and different created creatures from us. We can never become angels nor can they become us anymore than we the created can become a God or the uncreated. It is not the nature of the order that God created.
(Laurel W) It was necessary due, once more, to the apostasy. Clearly you don't believe in it, but to me what has transpired shows how obvious it was that a restoration was needed.
(Cristoiglesia) I am a practical person. I do not believe in fantasy which is clearly your view. As I said before, there is no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence to support your claim. In fact all of the evidence denies your claim. Have you ever read the works of the ante-Nicene fathers? They stand in direct opposition to the nonsensical claims of Joseph Smith, et al. It is not only not obvious that there was needed restoration as I stated before; but such a belief destroys the veracity of Christ completely. It makes Jesus an incompetent liar and is blasphemy. Such teaching is a direct attack on the fathers of the Church, the disciples who ordained them into apostolic succession and Christ. May the Lord have mercy on those so bold as to lie so egregiously and deceive so many away from His one true Church.
(Laurel W) I do not believe that the Catholic faith is the one that was established by Christ. The example of many of the popes in past is proof of this, as well as the great divisions of the church before Constantine. Those were prevalent even during the days of Paul, as he often wrote about in his epistles.
(Cristoiglesia) Of course you do not believe the testimony of Christ’s Church because if you did your belief in the Mormon sect would fall like the house of cards that it is. But I challenge you like I have many others who make similar claims that the Catholic Church was not the Church founded by Jesus and the apostles to show me another Church that has endured for 2000 years as Jesus promised. There is no other, never has been and never will, of that fact humanity can be confident. There is only one Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church and the world will never see another.
I am a historian of the early Church and I have not found any evidence to support your view of great divisions in the Church after the disciples died. We see their disciples continuing the faithful teaching given to them at the foot of the disciples such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp and even Barnabas who learned directly from the Lord. They show evidence of being faithful servants even into their martyrdoms. Certainly St. Paul speaks of the Gnostics whose heresies plagued the first four centuries of the Church and the Arian heresy of the fourth century. But we see the Church always being victorious against these heresies. There was the miracle of the Council of Nicaea where a young and inexperienced deacon named Athanasius went up against the powerful bishop Arius and prevailed despite the support of Arius from the Emperor Constantine. This is proof of God raising the weak to show His glory before the might of man. There are other examples like this through the history of the Church. These great divisions in the Church before Constantine did not really exist but were instead threats from outside the Church similar to the Mormon threat that preys on the weak in faith and knowledge. Your claim is a gross exaggeration but even if it was true it would simply testify to the veracity of what Christ founded on the disciples and the power of the Paraclete in guiding and inspiring the leadership of the Church.
(Laurel W) To the LDS, there are several degrees of glory exaltation. The middle one is like what you say. Higher, we through Christ become deified. The bible itself talks about us being gods.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes I am aware of the Mormon teaching on deification. The Bible does not teach that we will become God’s but that we will share in the attributes of God in heaven. To say that the creature or created can become the uncreated or God is a doctrine of devils. In fact this was the cause of the fall of man when Satan tempted Eve saying that by eating the fruit in the middle of the garden that she would become as God. The Mormon Church tempts man with this same lie. It is nothing new for Satan but just packaged as a teaching of a new counterfeit church to what Jesus founded. Isn’t it interesting that Mormonism makes the same promise as the great deceiver and father of all lies. The Mormon sect stands in testimony of the power of Satan to deceive mankind. He becomes as an angel of light and appeals to our perverse nature of the flesh. We desire to be what we can never attain out of pride and arrogance. Such is the nature os Satan’s snares.
(Laurel W) Once more, you are wrong with Sidney Rigdon. In 1820, Joseph Smith had his first vision. He was 14. Sidney Rigdon joined the church in 1830, after he had read the Book of Mormon which had recently been published(on a trip to New York from Ohio). He did not know Joseph Smith prior to that.
(Cristoiglesia) There is a lot of evidence and testimony to the contrary and very little evidence to refute the claims. It is highly doubtful that they made acquaintance post 1830 and it is more likely that they knew each other at least 10 years before.
(Laurel W) Joseph followed Jesus and what he said. That is how our church came about. We don't need to choose between them.
(Cristoiglesia) Your statement is the most interesting of all the statements I have heard from a Mormon from the standpoint of how revealing it is of the Mormon devotion to Joseph Smith. It is as if you are placing the status of Joseph Smith on the same level with Jesus. You just opened up my eyes as to how Mormons can believe by implication that Jesus was an incompetent liar. You actually seem to believe that Joseph Smith came to the rescue to correct the errors made by Christ in founding His Church. You actually believe that your manmade sect has more veracity than what Christ founded and that Joseph Smith has saved the Church from the errors and incompetence of Jesus.
(Laurel W)The Urim and Thummin is all over the Old Testament. (e.g. Ex. 28: 30, more, Rev 2: 17 refers to it).
Moroni took the plates back. But not before at least a dozen witnesses saw them.
(Cristoiglesia) Nonsense, there never was any gold plates, Urim and Thummin in the possession of Joseph Smith. Nor has there ever been a messenger from God named Moroni although Moroni if not a figment of Joseph Smith’s and Sidney Rigdon’s imagination, could be an angel of the dark as the one that gave the Quran to the other counterfeit church, Islam. The parallels are striking.
(Laurel W) The Catholic church was not created by Christ. Don't twist my words.
(Cristoiglesia) The Bible disagrees with you as does the Church fathers and history. My challenge stands show me another Church that has endured for two thousand years as testimony to Christ’s promises and I will believe your allegations. Otherwise, your sect is a false church and from a source other than God. Jesus prayed in the garden before His crucifixion that we all be one in His Church and not in a counterfeit to His own true Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) No, it is impossible for us to become angels as the Scriptures I have already provided attest. Angels are separate and different created creatures from us. We can never become angels nor can they become us anymore than we the created can become a God or the uncreated. It is not the nature of the order that God created.
(Laurel W) It was necessary due, once more, to the apostasy. Clearly you don't believe in it, but to me what has transpired shows how obvious it was that a restoration was needed.
(Cristoiglesia) I am a practical person. I do not believe in fantasy which is clearly your view. As I said before, there is no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence to support your claim. In fact all of the evidence denies your claim. Have you ever read the works of the ante-Nicene fathers? They stand in direct opposition to the nonsensical claims of Joseph Smith, et al. It is not only not obvious that there was needed restoration as I stated before; but such a belief destroys the veracity of Christ completely. It makes Jesus an incompetent liar and is blasphemy. Such teaching is a direct attack on the fathers of the Church, the disciples who ordained them into apostolic succession and Christ. May the Lord have mercy on those so bold as to lie so egregiously and deceive so many away from His one true Church.
(Laurel W) I do not believe that the Catholic faith is the one that was established by Christ. The example of many of the popes in past is proof of this, as well as the great divisions of the church before Constantine. Those were prevalent even during the days of Paul, as he often wrote about in his epistles.
(Cristoiglesia) Of course you do not believe the testimony of Christ’s Church because if you did your belief in the Mormon sect would fall like the house of cards that it is. But I challenge you like I have many others who make similar claims that the Catholic Church was not the Church founded by Jesus and the apostles to show me another Church that has endured for 2000 years as Jesus promised. There is no other, never has been and never will, of that fact humanity can be confident. There is only one Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church and the world will never see another.
I am a historian of the early Church and I have not found any evidence to support your view of great divisions in the Church after the disciples died. We see their disciples continuing the faithful teaching given to them at the foot of the disciples such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp and even Barnabas who learned directly from the Lord. They show evidence of being faithful servants even into their martyrdoms. Certainly St. Paul speaks of the Gnostics whose heresies plagued the first four centuries of the Church and the Arian heresy of the fourth century. But we see the Church always being victorious against these heresies. There was the miracle of the Council of Nicaea where a young and inexperienced deacon named Athanasius went up against the powerful bishop Arius and prevailed despite the support of Arius from the Emperor Constantine. This is proof of God raising the weak to show His glory before the might of man. There are other examples like this through the history of the Church. These great divisions in the Church before Constantine did not really exist but were instead threats from outside the Church similar to the Mormon threat that preys on the weak in faith and knowledge. Your claim is a gross exaggeration but even if it was true it would simply testify to the veracity of what Christ founded on the disciples and the power of the Paraclete in guiding and inspiring the leadership of the Church.
(Laurel W) To the LDS, there are several degrees of glory exaltation. The middle one is like what you say. Higher, we through Christ become deified. The bible itself talks about us being gods.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes I am aware of the Mormon teaching on deification. The Bible does not teach that we will become God’s but that we will share in the attributes of God in heaven. To say that the creature or created can become the uncreated or God is a doctrine of devils. In fact this was the cause of the fall of man when Satan tempted Eve saying that by eating the fruit in the middle of the garden that she would become as God. The Mormon Church tempts man with this same lie. It is nothing new for Satan but just packaged as a teaching of a new counterfeit church to what Jesus founded. Isn’t it interesting that Mormonism makes the same promise as the great deceiver and father of all lies. The Mormon sect stands in testimony of the power of Satan to deceive mankind. He becomes as an angel of light and appeals to our perverse nature of the flesh. We desire to be what we can never attain out of pride and arrogance. Such is the nature os Satan’s snares.
(Laurel W) Once more, you are wrong with Sidney Rigdon. In 1820, Joseph Smith had his first vision. He was 14. Sidney Rigdon joined the church in 1830, after he had read the Book of Mormon which had recently been published(on a trip to New York from Ohio). He did not know Joseph Smith prior to that.
(Cristoiglesia) There is a lot of evidence and testimony to the contrary and very little evidence to refute the claims. It is highly doubtful that they made acquaintance post 1830 and it is more likely that they knew each other at least 10 years before.
(Laurel W) Joseph followed Jesus and what he said. That is how our church came about. We don't need to choose between them.
(Cristoiglesia) Your statement is the most interesting of all the statements I have heard from a Mormon from the standpoint of how revealing it is of the Mormon devotion to Joseph Smith. It is as if you are placing the status of Joseph Smith on the same level with Jesus. You just opened up my eyes as to how Mormons can believe by implication that Jesus was an incompetent liar. You actually seem to believe that Joseph Smith came to the rescue to correct the errors made by Christ in founding His Church. You actually believe that your manmade sect has more veracity than what Christ founded and that Joseph Smith has saved the Church from the errors and incompetence of Jesus.
(Laurel W)The Urim and Thummin is all over the Old Testament. (e.g. Ex. 28: 30, more, Rev 2: 17 refers to it).
Moroni took the plates back. But not before at least a dozen witnesses saw them.
(Cristoiglesia) Nonsense, there never was any gold plates, Urim and Thummin in the possession of Joseph Smith. Nor has there ever been a messenger from God named Moroni although Moroni if not a figment of Joseph Smith’s and Sidney Rigdon’s imagination, could be an angel of the dark as the one that gave the Quran to the other counterfeit church, Islam. The parallels are striking.
(Laurel W) The Catholic church was not created by Christ. Don't twist my words.
(Cristoiglesia) The Bible disagrees with you as does the Church fathers and history. My challenge stands show me another Church that has endured for two thousand years as testimony to Christ’s promises and I will believe your allegations. Otherwise, your sect is a false church and from a source other than God. Jesus prayed in the garden before His crucifixion that we all be one in His Church and not in a counterfeit to His own true Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Ongoing discussion with Laurel W about the Mormon claims against Christ's Church
(Laurel W) I am glad we are having this discussion. I will attempt, in the limited space I have here, to refute some of your claims and to clarify some of the things we as Latter-Day Saints believe.
(Cristoiglesia) I am always pleased to contend for the faith.
Jud 1:3 Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
(Laurel W) First, to the LDS people, every person is capable of becoming a saint through the atonement of Christ, not just a select few.
(Cristoiglesia) Christianity teaches the same except some Calvinist sects teach predestination which says that God predestines some for heaven and some to hell. This is not orthodox Christian teaching. Christian teaching is that all are given the chance to exercise their free will to come to faith and receive God’s salvific grace.
(Laurel W) We will be resurrected and become heirs of eternal glory with him.
(Cristoiglesia) What does that mean to a Mormon. To a Christian that means that we are given the gift of eternal life where we live with the blessed Trinity in eternity in worship and devotion to Him.
(Laurel W) Peter, James, and John are the very Peter, James, and John who ministered with Christ. These are resurrected beings, which is what angles are. They laid their hands on the head of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry, and conferred the higher priesthood to them (the lesser was given by John the Baptist at an earlier time).
(Cristoiglesia) No, angels are not resurrected beings. Here is what the Bible says about angels:
"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour." (Psalm 8:4,5)
Men and angels are obviously different creatures according to Scriptures. Angels according to Scriptures can never die but man in His fallen state does die:
Even Jesus becomes a man lower than the angels:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all.
So obviously, St. Peter, St. James and St. John are not nor could they ever have been angels and they have never returned to earth to lay hands on anyone. This is pure fantasy and totally lacking in any evidentiary support. Besides, why would this be necessary since the original priesthood of Jesus was still there as He promised it would be forever and enduring? There is absolutely no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence to support your implausible theory. Where was it prophesied in Scripture that the priesthood or the Church would be in need of restoration or that it would fail completely for 1800 years. The fact is that the Scriptures say the exact opposite of your claims.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Jesus based His kingdom on the Church He established that will endure forever without end.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,
It is based on the firm foundation of Himself as the cornerstone and the 12 disciples as the foundation stones. This foundation we find in the book of acts is built upon by apostolic succession. It is durable and lasting and not subject to failure leaving the Church without leadership for 1800 years as your sect claims. Jesus would have been an incompetent according to this Scripture if indeed what He founded failed and needed to be restored. He would have broken His promise as recorded by St. Mathew and that would make Him a liar. Is that the position that the Mormons want to take as there is no other explanation. If so you are attacking the very veracity of Jesus.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
What Jesus is saying here is that it is necessary for the enduring Church to have enduring leadership in which He placed all authority with St. Peter and the disciples. They, in turn passed that same authority to their successors. The Church will never lack leadership in need of restoration. There would never be a great apostasy that would destroy the Church creating a need for restoration either as the previous Scriptures clearly state. The same authority remains for all time without interruption or restoration.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
(Laurel W) Apostasy: 2 Thes. 2: 3
Of course I am not calling Christ incompetent or a liar. However, as with all dispensations, it is the people who fell away. Looking back the the Catholic church itself,
(Cristoiglesia) Yes you are calling Christ a liar unless you ignore the preceding Scriptures that truly state that the Church will endure without apostasy. There is no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence that the Church fell away and that apostolic succession failed after the death of the disciples. It is the Scriptures that prove the veracity of the Church and the fallacy of Mormon claims. Either Joseph Smith is right or Jesus. Christians choose Jesus.
(Laurel W) Sidney Rigdon was definitely not the author of the Book of Mormon. He wasn't even a member of the church when it was published. Joseph Smith was not the author, either. It was an ancient record, given to Joseph Smith by another angel (Moroni), translated by revelation through the Urim and Thummin.
(Cristoiglesia) Actually the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830 and by that time Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith had known each other at least ten years. There is very strong evidence that Sidney Rigdon was the author and no evidence of it being given by an angel named Moroni. There is also no evidence of anything called a Urim or Thummin being in existence or used by Joseph Smith or anyone else. Where are the plates golden plates? Where is the Urim and Thummin?
(Laurel W) I do believe the Catholic church is apostate. However, I believe it has many good people in it who have sincere desires for the truth. That is why I respect it.
Matt 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Read and pray sincerely about the fruit and you'll know.
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your honesty in admitting that you believe the Church created by Jesus and the disciples to be apostate and in so doing that Jesus is indeed a liar in your view. After all is this not the logical conclusion to such a speculation? Catholic Christians are not only made up of good people but those faithful to Christ’s Church. By good people I am referring to the fact that they are on the narrow path to salvation in Christ’s own Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) I am always pleased to contend for the faith.
Jud 1:3 Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
(Laurel W) First, to the LDS people, every person is capable of becoming a saint through the atonement of Christ, not just a select few.
(Cristoiglesia) Christianity teaches the same except some Calvinist sects teach predestination which says that God predestines some for heaven and some to hell. This is not orthodox Christian teaching. Christian teaching is that all are given the chance to exercise their free will to come to faith and receive God’s salvific grace.
(Laurel W) We will be resurrected and become heirs of eternal glory with him.
(Cristoiglesia) What does that mean to a Mormon. To a Christian that means that we are given the gift of eternal life where we live with the blessed Trinity in eternity in worship and devotion to Him.
(Laurel W) Peter, James, and John are the very Peter, James, and John who ministered with Christ. These are resurrected beings, which is what angles are. They laid their hands on the head of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry, and conferred the higher priesthood to them (the lesser was given by John the Baptist at an earlier time).
(Cristoiglesia) No, angels are not resurrected beings. Here is what the Bible says about angels:
"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour." (Psalm 8:4,5)
Men and angels are obviously different creatures according to Scriptures. Angels according to Scriptures can never die but man in His fallen state does die:
Even Jesus becomes a man lower than the angels:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all.
So obviously, St. Peter, St. James and St. John are not nor could they ever have been angels and they have never returned to earth to lay hands on anyone. This is pure fantasy and totally lacking in any evidentiary support. Besides, why would this be necessary since the original priesthood of Jesus was still there as He promised it would be forever and enduring? There is absolutely no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence to support your implausible theory. Where was it prophesied in Scripture that the priesthood or the Church would be in need of restoration or that it would fail completely for 1800 years. The fact is that the Scriptures say the exact opposite of your claims.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Jesus based His kingdom on the Church He established that will endure forever without end.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,
It is based on the firm foundation of Himself as the cornerstone and the 12 disciples as the foundation stones. This foundation we find in the book of acts is built upon by apostolic succession. It is durable and lasting and not subject to failure leaving the Church without leadership for 1800 years as your sect claims. Jesus would have been an incompetent according to this Scripture if indeed what He founded failed and needed to be restored. He would have broken His promise as recorded by St. Mathew and that would make Him a liar. Is that the position that the Mormons want to take as there is no other explanation. If so you are attacking the very veracity of Jesus.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
What Jesus is saying here is that it is necessary for the enduring Church to have enduring leadership in which He placed all authority with St. Peter and the disciples. They, in turn passed that same authority to their successors. The Church will never lack leadership in need of restoration. There would never be a great apostasy that would destroy the Church creating a need for restoration either as the previous Scriptures clearly state. The same authority remains for all time without interruption or restoration.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
(Laurel W) Apostasy: 2 Thes. 2: 3
Of course I am not calling Christ incompetent or a liar. However, as with all dispensations, it is the people who fell away. Looking back the the Catholic church itself,
(Cristoiglesia) Yes you are calling Christ a liar unless you ignore the preceding Scriptures that truly state that the Church will endure without apostasy. There is no Scriptural, Patristic or historical evidence that the Church fell away and that apostolic succession failed after the death of the disciples. It is the Scriptures that prove the veracity of the Church and the fallacy of Mormon claims. Either Joseph Smith is right or Jesus. Christians choose Jesus.
(Laurel W) Sidney Rigdon was definitely not the author of the Book of Mormon. He wasn't even a member of the church when it was published. Joseph Smith was not the author, either. It was an ancient record, given to Joseph Smith by another angel (Moroni), translated by revelation through the Urim and Thummin.
(Cristoiglesia) Actually the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830 and by that time Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith had known each other at least ten years. There is very strong evidence that Sidney Rigdon was the author and no evidence of it being given by an angel named Moroni. There is also no evidence of anything called a Urim or Thummin being in existence or used by Joseph Smith or anyone else. Where are the plates golden plates? Where is the Urim and Thummin?
(Laurel W) I do believe the Catholic church is apostate. However, I believe it has many good people in it who have sincere desires for the truth. That is why I respect it.
Matt 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Read and pray sincerely about the fruit and you'll know.
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your honesty in admitting that you believe the Church created by Jesus and the disciples to be apostate and in so doing that Jesus is indeed a liar in your view. After all is this not the logical conclusion to such a speculation? Catholic Christians are not only made up of good people but those faithful to Christ’s Church. By good people I am referring to the fact that they are on the narrow path to salvation in Christ’s own Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
23 August, 2009
Discussion with Laurel W about the legitimacy of the Mormon priesthood
(Laurel W) Just to let you know, I did like your answer. But I do want to clarify something about the LDS beliefs.
The LDS church does have a legitimate claim to the Priesthood authority. Peter, James, and John, came to the earth and personally (as resurrected angels) and gave the priesthood to Joesph Smith. We do not get the priesthood from nothing.
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your comments in regards to my statement that the Mormons have no legitimate claim to the priesthood established by Christ or legitimacy for their sect. No, the Mormons have no claim to priesthood authority. Only those who are in apostolic succession from the original disciples have this authority given by Jesus Himself. There never were any angels named Peter, James or John but there were three disciples named St. Peter, St, James and St. John who were not resurrected as angels or anything else. They have died and are in heaven on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So, any claim that the three disciples changed into angels and came back to earth is total nonsense.
(Laurel W) In our view, there was a need for it. There was a great apostasy (as stated in 2 Timothy), and thus a time on the earth where there was no true church.
(Cristoiglesia) This is not stated in 2 Timothy at all. No where in all of Scriptures is it stated that there will be a time when there would be no true Church? Such a belief is a direct attack on the veracity of Christ who stated that He had built an enduring Church that would last until the end of time. He stated that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. He further promised that His Church would be the “pillar and foundation of the truth.
Jesus said that He is the cornerstone and the disciples are the 12 foundation stones of the Church which apostolic succession is built upon. This is a firm foundation on stone and not one built on sand as you suggest. This is the leadership of the enduring Church that has lasted continuously for 2000 years and will last as Jesus said, until the Parousia. You have just called Jesus either an incompetent at best or a liar at worst in His promises about His Church. Such talk is blasphemy.
(Laurel W) The Catholic church was establihed by Constantine. Before that, there had been many sects which had fallen away from the truth. He did the best he could to bring the beliefs together, and he established a church based on what he thought was the truth.
Constantine was an Emperor and never a leader of the Church. At the Edict of Milan he stopped the persecution of the Church which allowed freedom of worship of any religion within his empire. Certainly before his time there had been heretical groups like the Gnostics and Arians and one of these the Arians were condemned during his reign as emperor at the Council of Nicaea. The Church had fought off heresies that threatened the Church successfully. But, Constantine had nothing to do with the Church as he was a secular leader and not a member of the Church. Jesus is not a liar and the Church still prevails to this day as it has uninterruptedly for 2000 years just as Jesus said it would. It still has the unbroken leadership through apostolic succession. There is absolutely no historical evidence that supports your supposition.
(Laurel W) I will let you know that I do respect the Catholic church. I am glad you know the need of Priesthood authority. You may not agree with my views of the LDS church. That's OK.
(Cristoiglesia) Why would you respect a church that you believe is an apostate church or as you seen to allege a counterfeit of an apostate church. I do not agree with the Mormon sect because they by implication make Jesus into a liar in establishing His Church and what they do is not OK but is false teaching from the depths of hell.
(Laurel W) Frankly, I think we are the only two Christian churches which have a leg to stand on: the Catholics believe they were the original church, and the LDS believe the priesthood authority was taken from the earth for a time, but brought back personally by those who had the proper priesthood authority (other keys were restored as well). Other Christian churches are break-offs. I do not expect you to convert or believe my religion or anything. I just want you to know that our stand on the priesthood is legitimate.
(Cristoiglesia) The Mormons have no legitimate priesthood or authority. Jesus established only one enduring Church of which the Catholic Church is testimony to His veracity in His promises to humanity about His Church. The Catholic Church is the only Church established by Jesus and the apostles and is the original Church. It was not founded by a Roman emperor as you claim but Jesus as the Bible claims. The leadership of Christ’s Church has been continuous and the Church has never, nor will it ever be without the same leadership established by Jesus. Other ecclesiastical groups calling themselves “Christian” did come from the Catholic Church. Even your group came out of the Protestant movement and originated with the Campbellite heresies. Sidney Rigdon the believed author of the Book of Mormon was a Campbellite. But, your group has departed so far into apostasy that it can not make a legitimate claim as a “Christian” sect in that you deny the very foundation of Christian belief which is God being the God of the Trinity. Yours is a false Gospel and your Church is described in Scriptures thusly:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
What you described in 2 Timothy is prophesying the coming of the Protestant and subsequently Restorationist movements like yourself and not the fall of the one true Church. It is speaking of those who fall away from the vine.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
I say these things in the spirit of St. Paul who instructed us to endure in the truth:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.
The Catholic Church and its priesthood established by Christ still stands as a shining city on a hill as testimony to the veracity of Christ and that He is everything He said He is. The Church will forever testify to the truth in Christ. Yours is the counterfeit church doing the work of Satan and separating some from the truth in Christ. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
The LDS church does have a legitimate claim to the Priesthood authority. Peter, James, and John, came to the earth and personally (as resurrected angels) and gave the priesthood to Joesph Smith. We do not get the priesthood from nothing.
(Cristoiglesia) Thank you for your comments in regards to my statement that the Mormons have no legitimate claim to the priesthood established by Christ or legitimacy for their sect. No, the Mormons have no claim to priesthood authority. Only those who are in apostolic succession from the original disciples have this authority given by Jesus Himself. There never were any angels named Peter, James or John but there were three disciples named St. Peter, St, James and St. John who were not resurrected as angels or anything else. They have died and are in heaven on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So, any claim that the three disciples changed into angels and came back to earth is total nonsense.
(Laurel W) In our view, there was a need for it. There was a great apostasy (as stated in 2 Timothy), and thus a time on the earth where there was no true church.
(Cristoiglesia) This is not stated in 2 Timothy at all. No where in all of Scriptures is it stated that there will be a time when there would be no true Church? Such a belief is a direct attack on the veracity of Christ who stated that He had built an enduring Church that would last until the end of time. He stated that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. He further promised that His Church would be the “pillar and foundation of the truth.
Jesus said that He is the cornerstone and the disciples are the 12 foundation stones of the Church which apostolic succession is built upon. This is a firm foundation on stone and not one built on sand as you suggest. This is the leadership of the enduring Church that has lasted continuously for 2000 years and will last as Jesus said, until the Parousia. You have just called Jesus either an incompetent at best or a liar at worst in His promises about His Church. Such talk is blasphemy.
(Laurel W) The Catholic church was establihed by Constantine. Before that, there had been many sects which had fallen away from the truth. He did the best he could to bring the beliefs together, and he established a church based on what he thought was the truth.
Constantine was an Emperor and never a leader of the Church. At the Edict of Milan he stopped the persecution of the Church which allowed freedom of worship of any religion within his empire. Certainly before his time there had been heretical groups like the Gnostics and Arians and one of these the Arians were condemned during his reign as emperor at the Council of Nicaea. The Church had fought off heresies that threatened the Church successfully. But, Constantine had nothing to do with the Church as he was a secular leader and not a member of the Church. Jesus is not a liar and the Church still prevails to this day as it has uninterruptedly for 2000 years just as Jesus said it would. It still has the unbroken leadership through apostolic succession. There is absolutely no historical evidence that supports your supposition.
(Laurel W) I will let you know that I do respect the Catholic church. I am glad you know the need of Priesthood authority. You may not agree with my views of the LDS church. That's OK.
(Cristoiglesia) Why would you respect a church that you believe is an apostate church or as you seen to allege a counterfeit of an apostate church. I do not agree with the Mormon sect because they by implication make Jesus into a liar in establishing His Church and what they do is not OK but is false teaching from the depths of hell.
(Laurel W) Frankly, I think we are the only two Christian churches which have a leg to stand on: the Catholics believe they were the original church, and the LDS believe the priesthood authority was taken from the earth for a time, but brought back personally by those who had the proper priesthood authority (other keys were restored as well). Other Christian churches are break-offs. I do not expect you to convert or believe my religion or anything. I just want you to know that our stand on the priesthood is legitimate.
(Cristoiglesia) The Mormons have no legitimate priesthood or authority. Jesus established only one enduring Church of which the Catholic Church is testimony to His veracity in His promises to humanity about His Church. The Catholic Church is the only Church established by Jesus and the apostles and is the original Church. It was not founded by a Roman emperor as you claim but Jesus as the Bible claims. The leadership of Christ’s Church has been continuous and the Church has never, nor will it ever be without the same leadership established by Jesus. Other ecclesiastical groups calling themselves “Christian” did come from the Catholic Church. Even your group came out of the Protestant movement and originated with the Campbellite heresies. Sidney Rigdon the believed author of the Book of Mormon was a Campbellite. But, your group has departed so far into apostasy that it can not make a legitimate claim as a “Christian” sect in that you deny the very foundation of Christian belief which is God being the God of the Trinity. Yours is a false Gospel and your Church is described in Scriptures thusly:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
What you described in 2 Timothy is prophesying the coming of the Protestant and subsequently Restorationist movements like yourself and not the fall of the one true Church. It is speaking of those who fall away from the vine.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
I say these things in the spirit of St. Paul who instructed us to endure in the truth:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.
The Catholic Church and its priesthood established by Christ still stands as a shining city on a hill as testimony to the veracity of Christ and that He is everything He said He is. The Church will forever testify to the truth in Christ. Yours is the counterfeit church doing the work of Satan and separating some from the truth in Christ. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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