(Cristoiglesia)
I am still curious as to what you meant by the preceding statement. “works
against” conversion out of a contrite heart?”
(PeaceByJesus) Well, I am still curious as to what your
basis is for assurance of truth, by what means (what sources and means do you
appeal to), we can be sure of truth and that Rome is the OTC, and i am not
getting a clear answer.
(Cristoiglesia)
I thought I was very clear when I said the following:
It
is Christ’s promises that provides the veracity for the Church. Matt. 10:20;
Luke 12:12; Matt. 16:18; Luke 10:16; John 14:16; John 16:13 I would not pretend
to be any more clear than Christ.
(PeaceByJesus)
In addition, rather than placing your latest response to my post below it, you
are placing it above, which will end up making it harder to chronologically
follow.
(Cristoiglesia)
I agree but I have no control as the posts are listed chronologically.
(PeacebyJesus)
As for “works against” conversion out of
a contrite heart?” i am referring to institutionalized “Christian” religion,
Catholic or Protestant, and which fosters confidence in the church and or one's
own merit for salvation, and typically perfunctory professions and liberal
views, which Catholics (such as Rome counts and buries as members) overall
evidence. Note that what we believe and teach is not simply what we say, but
what we effectually convey.
(Cristoiglesia)
I agree…what we are conveying by our merciful actions is that we are called not
to judge the hearts of our congregants as to their salvific worth. The Church
does not presume to know who is saved and who is not. We pray that all are
saved by God’s mercy and justice is not ours but the Lord’s. Again, I would
pray that what we convey is a merciful non-judgmental Church who cannot pretend
to know the state of one’s soul at death. Only God knows who is saved.
Certainly we can be assured that no one is saved without the Church and while
we know where the Church resides we do not profess to know where it is not.
(Cristoiglesia)
The Catholic and Orthodox Church share the same apostolic authority from Christ
so all congregations that share this authority of Christ are the true Church.
(PeaceByJesus)
We are looking for the One True Church in particular, and while Rome can
include them as part of the “Church,” and even baptized Protestants in general
as part of the body of Christ, yet both RCs and EOs claims to be the OTC in
particular. And assured papal infallibility or lack thereof, among other
things, is part of that uniqueness, with both claiming Tradition is on their
side, and with both holding to sola ecclesia.
Quotes:
►
In the Nicene Creed of faith our Church is described as the "One, Holy
Catholic and Apostolic Church": "One" because there can only be
one true Church with one head Who is Christ... Each of these titles is limiting
in some respects, since they define Christians belonging to particular
historical or regional Churches of the Orthodox communion... After the seventh
Ecumenical Council in AD 787, the basic unity of faith and ecclesiastical life
between East and West began to disintegrate, due to a variety of theological,
jurisdictional, cultural and political differences. This eventually led to the
Great Schism between East and West of AD 1054. (http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/)
(Cristoiglesia)
I have already given to you the 1st century definition of the
visible Church which is defined by the apostles and their chosen successors.
The apostolic unity cannot compromised by our disagreements as it is ordained
by Christ. This continues to unite us even with our theological, jurisdictional
and political differences and we remain one true Church in schism.
All authority was given to the apostles from
Christ and at least some of that special authority is recorded in Scripture and
is certainly attested to by the ante Nicene fathers.
There
is no doubt that the apostles knew that their ministry would survive their
death as it was needed to be a permanent living presence until the Parousia.
(Mat
28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.
And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Knowing
their responsibility in preserving the teaching of Christ they ordained
successors giving them the gift of the Spirit with Episcopal consecration:
(Act
1:8 DRB) But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and
you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and
even to the uttermost part of the earth.
(Act
2:4 DRB) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak
with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
(Joh
20:22 DRB) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them:
Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
(Joh
20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins
you shall retain, they are retained.
(1Ti
4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti
1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God
which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(2Ti
1:7 DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love
and of sobriety.
There
is no doubt that “Apostolic Succession” is a historical fact. Scriptures, as
well show clearly that Christ chose these apostles and commissioned them to establish
and continue his work with his authority and they ordained successors. It is
Apostolic Succession that is the link connecting the Church to Christ. It is
the authority from Christ of the Episcopacy that brings so many knowledgeable
people to return to the Catholic faith as I am a witness.
We
see those who were ordained in apostolic succession fulfilling their ministry:
(Act
20:28 DRB) Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy
Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath
purchased with his own blood.
(1Th
1:1 DRB) Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians: in
God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th
1:2 DRB) Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all:
making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,
(1Th
1:3 DRB) Being mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of
the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father.
(1Th
1:4 DRB) Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:
(1Th
1:5 DRB) For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also:
and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we
have been among you for your sakes.
(1Th
1:6 DRB) And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in
much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(1Th
1:7 DRB) So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and
in Achaia.
1Th
1:8 DRB) For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in
Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards
God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.
(1Th
1:9 DRB) For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had
unto you: and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true
God.
(1Th
1:10 DRB) And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the
dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.
(2Ti
1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God
which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(Tit
1:5 DRB) For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order
the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I
also appointed thee:
(Tit
1:6 DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful
children, not accused of riot or unruly.
(Tit
1:7 DRB) For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud,
not subject to anger, nor given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy
lucre:
(Tit
1:8 DRB) But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent:
(Tit
1:9 DRB) Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he
may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.
(1Ti
4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti
1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God
which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
St.
Paul goes on to instruct St. Timothy as to who is a qualified candidate for
ordination:
(1Ti
3:1 DRB) A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth
good work.
(1Ti
3:2 DRB) It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one
wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a
teacher,
(1Ti
3:3 DRB) Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not
covetous, but
(1Ti
3:4 DRB) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection
with all chastity.
(1Ti
3:5 DRB) But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take
care of the church of God?
(1Ti
3:6 DRB) Not a neophyte: lest, being puffed up with pride, he fall into the
judgment of the devil.
(1Ti
3:7 DRB) Moreover, he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest
he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
(1Ti
5:22 DRB) Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other
men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.
We
also find in the Scriptures that those in Apostolic Succession had particular
and varied duties:
(1Co
12:27 DRB) Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
(1Co
12:28 DRB) And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly
prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings,
helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
(1Co
12:29 DRB) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
(Eph
4:11 DRB) And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some
evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
(Eph
4:12 DRB) For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for
the edifying of the body of Christ:
We
are further reminded of the foundation of the Church:
(Eph
2:19 DRB) Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are
fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God,
(Eph
2:20 DRB) Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone:
This
is only some of the Scriptures speaking of apostolic succession and the duties,
need and authority of the office.
(PeaceByJesus)
Then there are those who attempt to join together all Christian religions into
one faith. They would be horrified at the idea of a service with Hindus and Christians
celebrating together, yet they do not bat an eyelash at the idea of Orthodox
celebrating with Roman Catholics, who with no authority broke off from the
Church close to a thousand years ago. (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/against-ecumenism.html)
(Cristoiglesia)
It is Christ’s desire that we be one. If anyone says differently they are
speaking outside of God’s will.
(PeaceByJesus)
"The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal
jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception
precisely because they are untraditional." — Clark Carlton, THE WAY: What
Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135>
(Cristoiglesia)
Yes the Orthodox would not agree as to the extent of the authority of the Pope
or prime minister of the Church but they have always agreed that the Pope or
Bishop of Rome is the first among equals. The East and the West define this
differently as to jurisdiction. The East would agree that the Pope and the office
he holds comes with a charism from Christ. Again, the disagreement may be the
extent of that charism. On purgatory there is very little difference between
the Eastern and the Western Church. The difference between the East and the
West according to the Immaculate conception is that the Catholic Church believes
in a priori state of the blessed mother of sinlessness while the Orthodox agree
that she was without sin but believe that this state was imposed by her lack of
sinful actions. This difference is based primarily on the lack of unity between
the East and the West as to whether God works outside of time or within time.
Is God within time or outside of this creation? I believe that both the Eastern
and western Church would disagree with Clark Carlton as to these beliefs being
untraditional.
(PeaceByJesus)
“Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in
the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied
they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of
the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the
dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The
Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.” — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076
(Cristoiglesia)
Both the Eastern and the Western Church agrees that there have been evil abuses
of the selling of indulgencies by some individuals. And, we would both agree that
this has been witnessed but both also agree that it is necessary for one to be
purified of even the dross of sin before entering into the presence of God. We
call that process of purgation purgatory but it is not a place but instead a
process of final purification for those entering heaven.
(Cristoiglesia)
I am not sure what papal infallibility has to do with the current discussion.
(PeaceByJesus)
You are not sure what Rome's papal infallibility has to do with who the OTC is
??? RCs are defending Rome as the One True Church® in particular. Can Rome be
this OTC without it?
(Cristoiglesia)
Whether the Pope is infallible or not has nothing to do with the veracity of
the Church founded by Christ. Whether the Pope is fallible or not the Church is
still the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. As I have pointed out the
Church has veracity because of Christ and not because of itself or anyone in
it.
Let
us look at the teaching of our Lord about His Church. Using construction
vernacular He said that He was the King, High Priest, and Cornerstone of the
Church. The beginning of a firm/solid/ foundation is always the cornerstone
which holds together the elements of the construction.
He
appointed St. Peter as the prime minister of the Church fulfilling the prophecy
of Isaiah that the Messiah would ordain an enduring office of prime minister
and that that prime minister would be given the keys to the kingdom. This is
exactly what He did when appointing St. Peter. The keys represented his office
and the authority of that office which was to have the power of the king in
ministering to the kingdom and the authority to teach and proclaim the will of
the king. (Isa 22:20-25)
The
disciples are called the 12 foundation stones (Rev 21:14) of the Church
continuing illustrating the permanence of what God is building through
apostolic succession. It is not a foundation of sand that is temporary but is
of an enduring nature to last until the Parousia and strong enough to withstand
the tumultuous attacks of hell that would surely attempt to prevail against the
Church using every method of attack from within and from without. Even the
world would hate that which our Lord had built just as it hated Him. This
enduring leadership is the foundation of a Church that can truly be called the
"pillar and foundation of the truth" because that which Christ has
ordained shall never pass away or be absorbed into the world but will for all
time remain heavenly as the ark for humanity where all may be saved just as the
ark of Noah was the type for the Church which must endure within the evil of
the world to bring the faithful into the promised land of heaven.
Last
of all; the Church stands as testimony to the veracity of Christ and His
promises to humanity. The Church is the fulfillment of Scriptures in its
enduring quality as well as it being that pillar or bulwark of truth in a world
filled with lies, temptation and sins that will murder souls to Christ and
decrease the harvest. Its unity in His will with faith and oneness of its
mission to proclaim the Gospel after 2000 years is a miracle in itself but also
it proclaims the divinity of our Lord where in His prophetic vision, competence
of His leadership as the builder of His Church and His promises of His Church
makes it truly a city on a hill that cannot be hid (Mat 5:14) frustrating its
detractors and more truly the "gates of hell".
(Peace
ByJesus) i want to know if historical decent makes the magisterium of Rome
supreme in any conflict
(Cristoiglesia)
No, it is Christ’s promises that provides the veracity for the Church. Matt.
10:20; Luke 12:12; Matt. 16:18; Luke 10:16; John 14:16; John 16:13
(PeaceByJesus)
Again, Church as in Rome. So despite your invoking tradition and history, it is
Scripture that establishes the veracity for the Church? I did not know you were
an evangelical. But that is an interpretation of Scripture, to which there are
alternatives. What makes that one right, and as providing assurance ?
(Cristoiglesia)
It seems as if you are trying to make this into a circular argument when in
fact, it is the Church existing priori to the Scripture about the Church. Again
the veracity of the Church is from Christ. Scripture only records what Christ
had already established.
(PeaceByJesus)
And despite the competition on the basis of Tradition and history, would you
say that having historical decent of magisterial office at least negates the
authority of claims of those who lack it in any conflict?
(Cristoiglesia)
The Church is the teaching authority for all Christians by the authority given
to the Church by Christ.
(PeaceByJesus)
By Church you mean the RCC. That is an often made claim, but repetition does
not make it right.
(Cristoiglesia) No,
I am speaking of the Catholic Church. Roman Catholic Church is a pejorative name
given to the Church by the Church of England. What makes it right is the
promises of Christ.
(Peace
By Jesus) Are you claiming that Rome provided an infallible, indisputable canon
that early?
(Cristoiglesia) Certainly
(PeaceByJesus)
False. According to weightier sources than you, Trent was the first infallible
proclamation of the canon, and thus there was dispute among Roman Catholic
scholars through the centuries right into Trent (and there is yet dispute
whether the canon it affirmed was exactly the same as that of Carthage and
Hippo).
(Cristoiglesia)
No, there was no dispute of the Canon that brought about the proclamation of
Canon at the Council of Trent. It was in response to the Protestant heretic’s
attempts to change the Christian Canon.
(Cristoiglesia)
The Church is the teaching authority as an infallible book needs an infallible
teacher.
(PeaceByJesus)
Again you mean the RCC, and upon that premise, an assuredly infallible
magisterium must have existed before Rome in order for people to rightly
understand Scripture. Can you tell me what that was?
(Cristoiglesia)
No, the Church is called the Catholic Church and not the RCC. The Church existed
prior to Scripture. It was the Church that produced the New Testament which is
testimony of the Church and its relationship to Christ.
(PeaceByJesus)
Moreover, by that logic, the church must have an assured infallible interpreter
of itself, as what it teaches often requires some interpretation. Can you
definitely even tell me how many infallible pronouncements there are in all?
(Cristoiglesia)
That would be the Holy Spirit that was given to the Church and prevents the
Church from teaching falsely.
The
New Testament is the inspired Word of God and so is the Old Testament canonized
by the Church thus there is no conflict of authority between the Bible and the
Church.
(PeaceByJesus)
That is only an assertion. But what means are you assured it is right?
(Cristoiglesia)
I have already told you that the Church
is protected from teaching falsely by the Paraclete.
(PeaceByJesus)
However, most of Scripture was established as such before there ever was a
church in Rome, and truth was preserved without an assuredly infallible
magisterium such as Rome claims.
(Cristoiglesia)
No, the New Testament books were written concurrently with the establishment of
the congregation of the Church in Rome. The Bible would not be canonized for
several centuries.
(PeaceByJesus)“No;”
so “most of Scripture” consists of the New Testament, and before the Church of
Rome salvific truth was not preserved (or assuredly known)?
(Cristoiglesia)
Scripture consists of the Old and the New Testaments. At the time of the
formation of the Catholic Church there was no unified Canon of the Old
Testament and the New Testament had not been written. Most of the teaching in
the first three centuries was by oral tradition rather than by the written Sacred
Tradition which had not yet been codified into the Christian Canon. So, sacred
Tradition; according to salvific truth was taught by Oral Sacred Tradition
preserved by apostolic succession. God bless!
In
Christ
Fr.
Joseph
