Discussion with a person named Donald about the blessed mother of God’s sinlessness and salvation.
My comments are in bold.
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
Romans 3:10-12 clearly states there is no one who is Righteous. Not even one person ever born was Righteous, not even Mary. Romans 3:10-12 also states there is none who does good, there is not even one.
Clearly the Holy Spirit is teaching us that Mary was not Righteous, that Mary never did Good, and that Mary never sought out God.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Everybody has sinned and fallen short, even Mary sinned and fell short.
Now let's look at the issue of blessed mother's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses the blessed mother at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:
"Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).
Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.
Being conceived without sin does not mean that the blessed mother had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, the blessed mother had vital need of a redeemer. The blessed mother's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception of Mary.
Jesus refers to the blessed mother's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, the blessed mother was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to the blessed mother as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.
All Christians will agree that there is at least one person who never sinned and that is our Lord and Savior. Being an exception means that there may be other possibilities of exceptions although we can agree that the circumstances of our Savior are unique being fully man and fully God. No other person future or past can make such a claim. As you know the Bible says that the blessed mother is "full" of God's grace at the Annunciation. We believe that God had prepared her for that moment of saying yes to be the God bearer. The womb that bore and nurtured our Lord is the Ark of the New Covenant which is Christ our Lord. God cannot dwell within sin so the blessed mother was saved by God's grace before she was even conceived in the womb immaculately. She was in need of a Savior as we all are and our Lord provided for her salvation and indeed her sanctity even before her conception. Being and remaining full of grace means that the blessed mother of God never sinned but would have been tempted to sin as the new Eve just as the original Eve was tempted. But just as her Son withstood temptation, her grace was so great that she was able to overcome all temptation.
Just for the record, the Bible also says that St. John the Baptist was saved from original sin but he was saved at birth and not conception. The blessed mother was unique in her immaculate conception.
“Why has the Catholic Church turned its back on God to clearly teach the doctrines of Demons?
Not to long ago your Pope declared that everyone who was sincere in their religion, no matter what god they followed, would enter into Heaven.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (NRSVCE)
5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.
As you can see Pope Francis was simply repeating what the Bible says. Jesus did die for all men to receive salvation. He opened up the gates of heaven to mankind. All that Jesus asks is that we believe in Him and follow His will in our lives.
Why does your Pope teach everyone can enter into Heaven, even those who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ is God?
He did not, but just taught the efficacy of what Jesus did on the cross in atoning for the sins of man.
9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How can a Hindu receive Salvation if he refuses to believe that Jesus Christ is God?
Therefore what your Pope claimed is totally opposite of what the Holy Spirit teaches in the Bible.
No, the Pope has not said what you conclude at all. You are bearing false witness which is a mortal sin.
You need to leave the Catholic Church and return to your first Love with Jesus Christ. How can you enter into Heaven if you are listening to false doctrines?
You should ask yourself this, since it is you that is bearing false witness against another, which is a mortal sin against the Decalogue.
Your Soul is at stake here.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
I would be more worried about your own soul since it is you breaking one of God’s Commandments of bearing false witness against another. Please repent and restore yourself into the familial relationship with Christ that your sinfulness against the Pope has separated you from unless you repent. 1Cor 5:9-13 does not describe any Catholics that I know and certainly not the Pope. I am constantly mindful of my salvation and would never intentionally do as you have done here in bearing false witness.
God has created everything good including all of humanity. But, we are all born with a propensity to sin and the free will to resist that sin or embrace it. St. Paul addressed this in the following:
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.
If one uses their free will to sin they are separating themselves further away from an eternity with God. Without repentance that will die in condemnation but if they live a life of repentance they will be saved by God’s grace.
Now, we know that God’s mercy is without limits but He is also just. Acknowledging this teaching we realize that we do not know who will be saved for sin may be private or public, both kinds of sin are known to the sinner and to God and it is by this unrepentant sin that we will be judged. We do know that all are called to salvation but that few respond fully to the call. We know that the path to salvation comes to a narrow gate where many will be unable to enter.
Mat 22:14- For many are called, but few are chosen.
Luk 13:24- Shall seek... Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it.
Here are some of the fallacies of believing that all will be saved or that all good people will be saved, other than the fact that none of us are worthy of salvation on our own. It is natural for people to want to depend on God’s mercy alone for salvation but as I said before God does not provide mercy at the exclusion of justice. There are also those who believe that God will even save those who have no desire to be saved. This is an example of mercy without justice for it would not be just to save someone without a desire to be saved. He does not give mercy to those who do not desire it from Him. He allows us and indeed prompts us to come to Him by preparing us all to surrender to His law written on our hearts. This law is sufficient and without it no one would be convicted to follow Him and desire Him. Our conscience is formed by this law which is intuitive and not learned by hearing His Word or by anything but recognizing His creation which the Bible says is sufficient knowledge to come to faith and desire Him. In this we surrender to Him and become obedient to His will to desire Him. By that and a devotion to repent of our sins is sufficient for salvation. It is the path to the narrow gate that Scriptures teach. It is His grace through the Holy Spirit that we are called and convicted of His will which is contained in His law circumcised upon our hearts. His grace is not forced upon anyone but one must surrender to Him to receive it. It is a free gift that one can refuse and we must recognize that many will refuse His gift and fail to surrender to His law which has the result of one condemning them. So, as much as we desire as Christians that God’s mercy be extended to all people both good and bad, it will only be given to those who surrender to His law and recognizing His sovereignty while living in His will. It is by having a desire for His Grace and repenting when we fail through our sinfulness which results in His mercy.
For those who believe that all good people will be saved we must understand that none of us are good enough. We all sin through thought, word and deed. As a result it is only through Christ’s salvific work that we can be justified by our contrite repentance and be deserving of His mercy. God bless!
“You need to compare what the Catholic Church teaches with the Truth in the Bible from the Holy Spirit.”
I have been doing that for more than 50 years and have never found any difference in the teaching confirming what the Bible says which is that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth and not some man-made counterfeit sect of Protestantism.
“If the Catholic Church teaches a different truth than what the Holy Spirit teaches you need to reject what the Catholic Church teaches and accept the Truth from the Holy Spirit.”
Really? Can you not put some specific examples of your scurrilous claim?
“How can you do the Will of the Father if you have no Truth in you? Read Matthew 7:21-23 and see what happens to those who do not do the Will of the Father. The do not enter into Heaven. Is this what you want? Not to be allowed to enter into Heaven?”
Do you really think that the will of the Father is different than the will of Jesus? Jesus prayed that we all be in unity in His Church the Catholic Church. I suppose you believe that it is OK not to do the will of Jesus and still be saved. That is a very odd position for a Christian to take.
“Your very Soul is at stake! Wide and broad is the road to destruction. But narrow and winding is the road to Heaven.”
But it is you taking the wide road by rejecting Christ’s Church and His will for unity. (Joh 17) The narrow way is the Church and not a man-made counterfeit sect to Christ’s own Church.
The righteous man shall live by faith.
Its by Faith we live. Faith that every Word in the Bible IS the Truth from the Holy Spirit!
My faith is in Christ and not in a book that can easily be misinterpreted by the ignorant as you give example. The only authority for teaching given by Jesus was to His Church that the Bible calls the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. Jesus said of His Church that it would never succumb to the “Gates of Hell”. Jesus is not a liar and the Bible is not false teaching as you claim. Why do you ignore all the teaching in the Bible that says that only His Church that does the work of salvation. Only His Church was given the Holy Spirit to keep it from error. The authority for Christians is Jesus, His Church and the Bible in that order. The Church has no authority apart from Christ and the Bible has no authority apart from the Church.
“Turn away from the lies in the Catholic Church and return to the truth that the Holy Spirit has for you!”
If you ever find a lie in the Catholic Church that you can reasonably support let me know. I have been searching for that lie most of my life and have yet to find it.
This is what Jesus Christ teaches. That we live by Faith!
Yes, and according to the Bible we are to live by that faith in unity in His Church and not one of the tens of thousands of counterfeits made by men who cannot endure the sound doctrines of Christ’s own Church.
“Its a shame on YOU and the Catholic Church that you put the teachings of lying demons above the teachings of the Holy Spirit.”
You are so confused about the teaching of Scriptures and since that is your sole authority you make egregious errors. Obviously you have no teachers that teach sound doctrine.
“ Do you not know that its the Holy Spirit who has the Truth?”
Of course and if you read your Bible it will teach you that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church at Pentecost to protect the Church from doctrinal error. The Church as a result cannot teach error as it has the protection of the Holy Spirit. That is why the Bible says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. It is through this authority that the Church wrote the New Testament and canonized the Christian Bible.
“Do you not know that what the Holy Spirit says is greater in Truth than the corrupted Catholic Church?”
No, according to sacred tradition in the Bible it is the same truth as the Bible calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
“God never put the Catholic Church above the Holy Spirit, it was Satan who has done this.”
There has never been any example of such a practice which is impossible. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Church to guide it to all truth and the Holy Spirit has never failed the Church from this promise.
“You wrote: " The Church has no authority apart from Christ and the Bible has no authority apart from the Church."
You have it backwards. The Bible has authority from God not from the Church. It was God the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible, not the Catholic Church.
No, It was Catholic Christians that wrote the New Testament and canonized the Christian Bible under the authority of Christ and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
“Until you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you cannot receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.”
You seem to have deluded yourself into thinking that you have the ability or gift to know the hearts of others. You are not God and do not have this ability or gift. (Luk 6:37, Mat 7:1-5)
“Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you cannot understand the thoughts of God. How can you understand what God is saying in the Bible if you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?”
“This is why you are so easily lead astray from the Truth in the Bible to accepting the lies of Demons.”
How did you come to this judgement. What are these lies of demons that you speak?
2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
“False prophets have entered into the Catholic Church and you are one of them.”
The Church speaks with this one voice of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to His Church, “He who hears you hears me” (Luk 10:16) So, are you saying that Jesus and the Bible are false teaching and that the promise of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is a false promise?
I am not a prophet but a teacher instead. Jesus left us with an infallible teacher that is the Holy Spirit that speaks through Christ’s own Church and I hear His voice.
Are you saying that God giving the Holy Spirit to the Church is insufficient to lead the Church to truth?
“Repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before its too late and you spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire.”
By God’s grace,I did that in my youth and continue to repent of my sins.
“May God have mercy on you soul for teaching the doctrines of Demons.”
I think that it would be appropriate for you to identify these doctrines of demons that you claim that the Church teaches and be prepared to support your contentions. The truth is that it is impossible for the Church to teach falsely on doctrinal matters. That was the purpose of Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to the Church so that anyone seeking Christ will know where the empirical truth can be found. I do depend on God’s mercy for my sinful soul.
“Israel existed as a NATION and a COUNTRY thousands of years ago.”
“Israel existed as a NATION and a COUNTRY thousands of years ago.”
No, the Nation of Israel was created in 1949.
“The only source for the Truth from God IS the Holy Spirit and the Bible. You and your Cult the Catholic Church has no Truth. Only God has the Truth and i listen to the Holy Spirit and what He says.”
I do not know where you get the idea that the only truth comes from the Holy Spirit and the Bible. It is ironic that you claim this as the Bible disagrees with your claim. The order of authority in the Bible is clearly stated as Jesus. His Church and then the Bible which is written by Catholic Christians and canonized by the Church. The Bible is not for private interpretation but is to be interpreted within the teaching of the Church that produced it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that the Bible says leads the Church from ALL error and not each individual who twists the Bible to fit their prejudice as you are a perfect example. So according to your statements you do not believe in biblical teaching unless it supports your unreasonable hatred for Christ’s own Church. If you actually listened to the Holy Spirit you would follow Jesus and His Church since His stated will the night before His crucifixion is that we have unity in His Church and not one of the tens of thousands of man-made counterfeits which you follow and are faithful. You show yourself to be an example as one who cannot endure the sound doctrines of Christ’s own Church the Catholic Church.
“The Truth is not in the Catholic Church and I have proved it. The Holy Spirit teaches Mary was a sinner, Romans 3:23 for ALL have sinned.”
The only thing you have proven is your lack of biblical scholarship and your prejudice against the teaching of Jesus and the Bible. Obviously this verse is showing the general state of mankind but certainly there are exceptions as the bible tells us which are Jesus, the blessed mother of God and arguably St. John the Baptist. One example of sinlessness is enough to prove your prejudice false and revel your lack of biblical scholarship and ignorance of Scriptures.
“The Holy Spirit teaches Mary was not Righteous, Romans 3:10-13, none is Righteous, no not one.”
Again this is a general statement of mans general state but again there is at least one exception and more.
“The Catholic Church has no Truth because it teaches lies about Mary.”
Why should I or anyone else believe you since you have been impotent to support even one example of your claim. I know of none of these lies that you claim. An accusation does NOT equal guilt and it is impossible for one that believes and trusts in Jesus to believe such accusations. He promised that His Church will never fall into apostasy. You claim it has calling Jesus a liar or an incompetent in founding His Church. The Bible is not a false teacher when it calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. For one that believes in the heresy of “Sola Scriptura” it is odd that you would proclaim by your statements that the Bible teaches falsely.
“You still do not understand. What God says has more Truth and authority than what the Catholic Church teaches. I read what the Catholic Church says and i compare it to what the Holy Spirit teaches in the Bible.”
If you truly believed what you are stating we would not be having this conversation. The reason we are having this discussion is because you do not accept what Jesus and the Holy Spirit teach in the Bible. Jesus teaches that the order of authority is Himself, His Church and then the Bible understood with the teaching authority given by Jesus to His Church. Again the Bible is not for private private interpretation. That is the primary cause for the tens of thousands of Protestant sects that cannot agree on even the simplest and most apparent teaching of Scripture. They cannot even agree that Jesus is God and the 2nd person in the Trinity of the one God. From your comments to me so far in our discussions you appear to be one of these even though you refuse to give me your affiliation. Why do you hide this? Are you ashamed of the fact that you are a part of a heretical man-made sect?
If you indeed did as you claim you would find that the teaching of Jesus, the Church and the Bible are in perfect accordance with one another without even a hint of contradiction. That is further evidenced by the fact that you continuously make the claim without being able to support even one of your accusations.
“You cannot win fighting against the Holy Spirit. You may hate what the Holy Spirit says, but you will lose in the end.”
Indeed and neither can you even though you so far are refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit that led you to me for help in overcoming your ignorance and hatred.
“Its not about the Catholic Church and what they say, its ALL about what God says in the Bible. The Bible is from the Holy Spirit and is greater in authority and Truth than the Catholic Church!”
The writers of the New Testament of the Bible were all, without exception, Catholic Christians. The Christian canon of the Bible was decided by the Church under Christ’s teaching authority given to the Church in the late 4th and early 5th centuries after the three African Synods led by St. Augustine when they ratified the decision of the previous Churhc council in Rome. Before this there was no Christian Canon of Scripture and the truth was spread by oral means by the Church of which you have so much hatred. The oral authority of the Church preceded the formation of the Bible for centuries. Jesus gave all teaching authority to his Church and not a book that is the product of the Church. Actually according to Scripture it has no authority outside the charism of Jesus to His Church.
“My only source of Truth is from the Bible! I do not need to listen to anything else other then the Bible from the Holy Spirit! I put God above all, you Catholics put the Catholic Church above all, even above God!”
You are making an empty claim against the Church unless you can support what you claim. Again and accusation does not equal fact. For facts you must have some proof and you have none because there is not any proof of what you claim. I will state the position of the Church and the Bible which is the authority according to Jesus and the Bible is the teaching of Jesus, His Church and lastly the Bible understood in the community of Christ’s Church.
“This is why i say you have not received Salvation because you always interpret the Scriptures with Mary being the main focus. ITS NOT ALL ABOUT MARY!”Its ALL about God and what He has done for us.
It seems Mary IS the main focus in your life. Therefore one has to conclude that Mary is your god.”
You are correct of the fact that I have not yet received salvation as salvation is a lifelong process for those in Christ that is not completed until our death when we are judged by Christ. If the blessed mother had not said yes to the angel of God then she would have been disobedient. Instead she said yes and as a result was an integral part of our salvation The blessed mother of God was and is the first Christian and it is by her example of obedience that we should strive to follow. She should not be vilified like you practice for her obedience to God. Certainly she is not an example that you have followed as you refuse the unity that Christ prayed for before His crucifixion. God is the focus of my faith of which the blessed mother of God is the greatest example of all times to emulate in her devotion and obedience to God.
No, in our discussions this has never occurred even once much less than always. You are the one that is very strangely preoccupied with an unreasonable hatred for Jesus’ mother. You want to marginalize her far below what the Bible teaches out of some kind of perverse prejudice that you cannot explain. In our conversations it is you that has made the blessed mother of God your focus. You are accusing me of your actions and that is ridiculous. I understand perfectly for your statements that you have a hatred for Jesus’ mother for some very odd reason. It seems to be a hatred that can only be demonically inspired. I have one God and that is the Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The following statement reveal the truth in what I have said…...
“God the Father is my God. God the Son is my God. God the Holy Spirit is my God. I have no need of your god Mary in my life.
What can Mary do for me that God cannot do? God is Eternal, forever, the most powerful being ever! Mary was a mere human, a sinner, has absolutely no powers of any kind, died and was buried in a grave. So why would i need Mary when i have God!
You can keep Mary as your god and i will follow the one and only True God!
You are so self delusional that its a joke.”
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit had a need for the blessed mother of God and blessed her beyond any woman. She said yes to God to bear God incarnate Jesus for the world so that we may be saved. That alone is a reason for all true Christians to honor her and use her as their example. Me delusional? Not a chance. God bless!