29 December, 2009

The eternal virginity and sinlessness of the blessed mother discussed with "Ernie"

(Ernie) Again and again, if I am speaking a false teaching, then what does the Catholic bible teach? Mary is not sinless either, as Romans 3:23 says. What does the Catholic bible teach about Mary being sinless? This is even bigger than the false teaching about Mary's virginity. Only one ever born is sinless, and He is Jesus. For Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist to be sinless, God would have lied in Romans 3:23, because all is all, and both Mary and John had both a man and a woman for parents, and Jesus did not. That is why He is sinless, and they are not, because no one born of both parents is sinless, because we are born into sin.

(Cristoiglesia) It appears that the reason that you are making errors in your understanding of Romans 3:23 is because of your lack of hermeneutical training, You are using a proof text methodology and not coming to the Bible to learn but to support already decided suppositions. This is called eisegesis and almost always results in exegetical error. Let us reason together on the following verse:

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

It seems as if you are focusing on only one word in this verse which is “all”. So, that being your focus, if we can find only one exception to this then it would change your whole understanding.

All Christians will agree that there is at least one person who never sinned and that is our Lord and Savior. Being an exception means that there may be other possibilities of exceptions although we can agree that the circumstances of our Savior are unique being fully man and fully God. No other person future or past can make such a claim. As you know the Bible says that the blessed mother is "full" of God's grace at the Annunciation. We believe that God had prepared her for that moment of saying yes to be the God bearer. The womb that bore and nurtured our Lord is the Ark of the New Covenant which is Christ our Lord. God cannot dwell within sin so the blessed mother was saved by God's grace before she was even conceived in the womb immaculately. She was in need of a Savior as we all are and our Lord provided for her salvation and indeed her sanctity even before her conception. Being and remaining full of grace means that the blessed mother of God never sinned but would have been tempted to sin as the new Eve just as the original Eve was tempted. But just as her Son withstood temptation, her grace was so great that she was able to overcome all temptation.

Just for the record, the Bible also says that St. John the Baptist was saved from original sin but he was saved at birth and not conception. The blessed mother was unique in her immaculate conception.

Now, you also stated that you do not believe that the blessed mother of God was forever virgin and base this on a mistranslation of scripture.

From a historical standpoint, in regards to the perpetual virginity of the virgin mother, no one believed that she had other children until the last two hundred years or so due to widespread mistranslation of Scripture and the non-scriptural practice of Sola Scriptura using improper hermeneutics.

When studying Scriptures as a body of work, in context pointing towards the atonement of humanity there is no other reasonable conclusion that one can come to other than the fact that the blessed mother had no other children than Jesus. Also the historical and the Biblical accounts confirm that the blessed mother was forever virgin. St. Joseph was not chosen as a husband in the normal sense but as the protector of the blessed mother's virginity. He was a much older man, likely a widower, chosen by God for this purpose. Let us look at the verses in question....

(Mat 12:46 DRB) As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him.

(Mat 12:47 DRB) And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee.

(Mat 12:48 DRB) But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?

(Mat 12:49 DRB) And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren.

(Mat 12:50 DRB) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The Greek noun used here is adelphoi which means brother and it is spelled exactly the same way both times it occurs in these Scriptures. One should note also that there is no such thing in Koine Greek grammar as a familial form of adelphoi. Now it is important to note that the language used here is in itself a translation from Aramaic for adelphoi used in the familiar way. In Aramaic there is no word which would distinguish ones biological brothers from other relatives such as cousins or even step brothers or sisters. The more acceptable term in proper translation would probably be something like brethren instead of brother. When Christ spoke he also used the Aramaic equivalent to adelphoi in the Greek, in a non-familiar sense when he said the following in verse 50, “he is my brother”.

As you can see with proper exegesis there is nothing in these verses to support the theory that St. Mary was not forever virgin and that she had other children besides Jesus. Please note that in all of Scriptures, no one is specifically called a child of the blessed mother other than Jesus.

Please note the following:

(Mat 1:20 DRB) But while he thought on these things, behold the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

(Mat 1:21 DRB) And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. For he shall save his people from their sins.

(Mat 1:22 DRB) Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying:

(Mat 1:23 DRB) Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

St. Mary was a virgin when she conceived and was a virgin after giving birth.

(Luk 1:26 DRB) And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

(Luk 1:27 DRB) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary.

(Luk 1:28 DRB) And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

(Luk 1:29 DRB) Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

(Luk 1:30 DRB) And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

(Luk 1:31 DRB) Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

(Luk 1:32 DRB) He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

(Luk 1:33 DRB) And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(Luk 1:34 DRB) And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

(Luk 1:35 DRB) And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The verses preceding show that she intended to remain a virgin when she said to the angel Gabriel, “I know not man”. Please notice in the following verses in St. John’s account of the crucifixion of the blessed mother being put into the care of St. John. If she had other children and especially other male children the Jewish tradition would be that she would have been cared for by them. Jesus knowing the hardship of a childless widow placed her in good hands with St. John.

(Joh 19:26 DRB) When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.

(Joh 19:27 DRB) After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Last of all there is the difficulty of history and Sacred Tradition to overcome, which has always, without exception, called her the Blessed Virgin.

(Ernie) According to your teaching, Mary and John could have died for the sins of the world, and that is an impossibility. Also, if what you teach is true, Jesus didn't die for the sins of Mary and John, seeing they are sinless. this is false doctrine.

(Cristoiglesia) Jesus was not the Lamb of God just because He was sinless but because He was God. It was His divinity that made Him perfect. Where in the Bible does it say that being sinless makes one divine? It does not so your theory has no biblical basis.

Now let's look at the issue of blessed mother's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses the blessed mother at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:

"Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).

Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.

Being conceived without sin does not mean that the blessed mother had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, the blessed mother had vital need of a redeemer. The blessed mother's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Jesus refers to the blessed mother's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, the blessed mother was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to the blessed mother as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.

(Ernie) I truly believe the Catholic church will be around after the Christians are raptured out of here, and become part of the one world religion, serving the one world government. I didn't know how much false doctrine the Catholic church is teaching, but now I see why you have your own bible, so you can teach these deceptions as truth.

(Cristoiglesia) Of course the “rapture” is not a biblical teaching but a doctrine of men. I do not subscribe to all the nonsensical conspiracy theories as well.

The Bible has been translated into almost every language and dialect in the world. The King James translation is a secular one that lacks any semblance o being inspired. There are hundreds of translation errors in the King James translation. It is suitable for reading but not for serious study. Serious scholars study the Bible in the original languages. The most accurate of the English translations that is comfortable to read is the Revised Standard Version. We do not have our “own” Bible in the context that you make the allegation. Your Bible, the King James Translation, is translated from the Bible that we canonized in the late fourth and early fifth century. In fact, it was Catholic Christians that wrote the New Testament. So you use a Bible that came from the authority that Jesus gave to His Church, the Catholic Church. This will explain how we got the Christian Bible:

In first century Jerusalem there were at least four OT Canons in use by different Jewish Groups. There was the Canon of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Ethiopian Jews and the Diaspora/Essene Jews. Jesus and the disciples used the Septuagint which was the Canon of the Diaspora/Essenes. We know this because it is quoted in the New Testament. This Canon continued to be the Canon of Christians until after the Reformation and, in fact until about 200 years ago when the Protestants adopted a condensed version of the Canon eliminating the Deuterocanonicals from their Bibles. Even the AKJ originally contained the complete Christian Canon. It has been said by critics of Christ’s Church that the Deuterocanonicals were never believed to be inspired and just the opposite is true. The decision by Christians as to which books are inspired and useful for teaching was decided at the African Synods in the late fourth and early fifth century. There was never a question about their inspiration.

The OT Canon chosen by the Protestants is actually a Jewish Canon not chosen by the Jews until after the establishment of Christianity as a result of the spread of Christianity to slow the growth of the new group in Jerusalem after the fall of the Temple in 70AD. Until then as I said previously there were many Canons in use. The adoption of the Canon missing the Deuterocanonicals united the Jews against the Christians was decided in the Jewish Council of Jamnia because the Deuterocanonicals referred too strongly to the Messiah fulfilled in Christ.

Some Protestants will claim that only the Jews have the authority to choose Canon but the Church deferred that decision to Christ and the disciples and it is clear through biblical research, that the Septuagint is the Bible used by the first century Church and quoted in the NT Scriptures. The fact that Protestants choose to adopt the Canon that was approved by the same Jews that accused our Lord that resulted in His crucifixion suggests the source of this confusion as from the father of lies who led the Pharisees to accuse Christ and petition for His punishment. It is another way that Satan divides the body of Christ and separates the faithful denying Christ’s prayer that we all be one in Christ through His Church. The Christian Church has always used the Septuagint as Canon and never the truncated version of modernist Protestants.

Some Protestants erroneously believe that Catholics added to the Bible with the Deuterocanonicals but this shows an ignorance of their own history and the history of Christianity as witnessed by Christ’s Church. The facts are that the Protestants removed the Deuterocanonicals and even considered strongly to remove some of the NT books currently in use by Protestants and Catholics. Fr. Martin Luther was in favor of removing the book of James because it conflicted with His heretical man made doctrines of the “Solas”, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. The heretic Ulrich Zwingli wanted to remove the Gospel of John because of its teaching of the commandment to Eat Christ’s Body and drink His Blood which contradicted his view of a real absence of Christ instead of a real presence in the Eucharist. Even Fr. Martin Luther could not endorse such a departure from Scriptures and deny that Christ is truly and really present in the Eucharist in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

(Ernie) If I have been a stumbling block I will repent, and God will forgive me. Same is true for you. But, some of your teachings do not agree with the bible I read, nor what bible teachers have taught me. To say anyone was sinless besides Jesus to me is blasphemy, because only Jesus is sinless. That is a very dangerous doctrine, and I cannot accept it as truth.

(Cristoiglesia) We are all born with original sin which was caused by our original parents bringing sin and death into the world. We have inherited that sin nature from the original fall from grace.

As was prophesied in the Old Testament a virgin will bear a son called Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14). That Son is to become the Lamb of God and a replacement for the Paschal Lamb of Passover which is emblematic of Christ as the feast of the New Covenant. This prophecy is important in that it illustrates the necessity of the perfect sacrifice. Not one of a perfection of the flesh as the Paschal Lamb refers but the perfection of the soul which requires a divine nature as no human alone could fulfill the perfection required by the Father but only the God-man in Jesus. Being fully God, He could not dwell and be nurtured in a vessel containing sin nor could the Lamb of God inherit the original sin of our original parents. So, out of necessity and in preparation to the blessed mother’s obedience she was saved by Christ at her conception. The blessed mother was in such a state of grace before conceiving and nurturing the unborn Jesus that she is described as being “full of Grace”. Of course being full of God’s grace leaves no room for sin.

Now keep in mind that some may argue that Jesus does not qualify as a type of the Paschal Lamb because the Paschal Lamb was required to be without any physical blemish. Certainly the wounds of Jesus, by His scourging, left Him as anything but a physically unblemished sacrifice. It is significant to acknowledge that the Paschal Lamb of the Passover saved one from physical death while Jesus being emblematic saves one from the death of the soul into sin. Therefore, the Lamb of God had the perfection of the soul necessary to atone for sin which causes spiritual death.

Furthermore, while the obedience of the Israelites at Passover instituted a special kinship of the people as the family of God so too does the new kingdom instituted by Christ’s atoning sacrifice institute a new kinship or Covenant signified by the fact that we are to eat the Lamb in all its Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity just as the Israelites had to eat the Lamb to be saved. Just like them it could not be a symbolic Lamb but its real flesh consumed; so too are we to partake of the reality of the feast provided by our Lord.

People may argue that it is not possible for Christ to save the blessed mother at her conception as the atoning sacrifice on the Cross has not yet occurred; this same argument by critics of the Eucharist argue similarly. But the fact is that God dwells outside of time where everything is in the eternal present without future or past. In the Scriptures according to St. Johns account of Jesus’ Colloquy at Capernaum in chapter 6 he said, “do this in remembrance of me” as translated into English but this is often a misunderstanding as to what Jesus was really saying because in English “remembrance means to recall a past event which is an approximation of the Greek meaning since there is no corresponding English equivalent. . However, the Koine Greek word used was “anamnesis” which has in its meaning an expectation of a miracle which transcends time and place. So what was truly being conveyed by Jesus’ words recorded by St. John is that the disciples truly ate the sacrificed flesh and drank the spilt Blood of our Lord just as we do today sharing in that one sacrifice presented by our Lord and shared by the entire Church in all its glorious manifestations. Therefore His atoning sacrifice provides for all humanity past, present and future.

(Ernie) I would never teach Jesus isn't the Lamb of God, because John said that in John 1:29. There you go trying to put words in my mouth I didn't say.

(Cristoiglesia) We must be aware that people come to conclusions by our teaching. If you give the impression that Jesus was corrupted by sin in the womb of His mother then you are asking for one to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not the perfect sacrifice but one that is a sinful creature like is described in Romans 3:23. Clearly He is not and I do not expect you to disagree and say that He is described in Romans 3:23 like everybody else. Clearly He is an exception and even though He was fully God and fully man He lacked our sinful nature which He inherited from His mother that provided Him the fullness of humanity without the stain of original sin as she had been prevented from receiving at her own conception.

(Ernie) I still believe you are on very dangerous ground, and when you have to give an account, everything will be made known. Like I said earlier, I stick by what I have believed, and you can continue to teach what you believe; but in the end, Jesus will judge us at the judgment seat of Christ, and I am ready for my judgment concerning what I have and will teach. All I'm saying to you is don't let man's teachings come out of your mouth to others, because once you teach someone, God takes it very serious what you have taught him/her.

(Cristoiglesia) Are you so blind that you cannot see either by pride or ignorance that it is you who is in protest of Christ’s Church and worship in a wholly man made sect based entirely on the doctrines of men. You are over 2000 years away from the formation of His Church which still exists today as the Catholic Church and is testimony to Christ’s veracity as the enduring Church just as He promised. The gates of hell have never prevailed against His Church and never will and it remains the shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) and the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15). God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

22 December, 2009

Jehovah Witness "Angelo" discussing the authority and justification for his sect

(Angelo) Ok, my friend. I guess you've got me there. I can't present the same kind of solid authority that you can that gave us the right to form a church. After all, you were given imprimatur for your church by a Roman Caesar centuries ago, weren't you? Constantine? No sir, I guess I can't beat that kind of status and prestige, held by the most powerful man in the world. Why, you still hold mass his now extinct Roman language, don't you?

(Cristoiglesia) I appreciate your honesty about not having any authority as a Church or as teachers. It is always difficult to get a Jehovah Witness to admit this fact. Certainly no one can duplicate the Church in authority and in the veracity of teaching. Please consider with whom you are having a discussion. I do not appreciate or give credence to fanciful revisionist history that you put up as a smokescreen.

The fact is that the Roman Emperor Constantine only proclaimed through the Edict of Milan that all religions in the empire had the freedom to worship. He stopped the persecution of Catholic Christians and had little real influence over the Church. We went from being an underground persecuted Church to being able to worship freely.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and the disciples. Jesus using construction vernacular said that His Church is built on Himself as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones. He spoke of a house built on sand as being temporary but if a house is built upon rock it is built to endure as He describes the Church and promises humanity that it would endure until He comes again at the Parousia.

All authority was given to the apostles from Christ and at least some of that special authority is recorded in Scripture and is certainly attested to by the ante Nicene fathers.

There is no doubt that the apostles knew that their ministry would survive their death as it was needed to be a permanent living presence until the Parousia.

(Mat 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Knowing their responsibility in preserving the teaching of Christ they ordained successors giving them the gift of the Spirit with Episcopal consecration:

(Act 1:8 DRB) But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

(Act 2:4 DRB) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

(Joh 20:22 DRB) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

(Joh 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.

(2Ti 1:7 DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love and of sobriety.

There is no doubt that “Apostolic Succession” is a historical fact. Scriptures, as well show clearly that Christ chose these apostles and commissioned them to establish and continue his work with his authority and they ordained successors. It is Apostolic Succession that is the link connecting the Church to Christ. It is the authority from Christ of the Episcopacy that brings so many knowledgeable people to return to the Catholic faith as I am a witness.

We see those who were ordained in apostolic succession fulfilling their ministry:

(Act 20:28 DRB) Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(1Th 1:1 DRB) Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians: in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.

(1Th 1:2 DRB) Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all: making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,

(1Th 1:3 DRB) Being mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father.

(1Th 1:4 DRB) Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:

(1Th 1:5 DRB) For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.

(1Th 1:6 DRB) And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

(1Th 1:7 DRB) So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.

1Th 1:8 DRB) For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.

(1Th 1:9 DRB) For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you: and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.

(1Th 1:10 DRB) And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.

(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.

(Tit 1:5 DRB) For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:

(Tit 1:6 DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.

(Tit 1:7 DRB) For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, nor given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre:

(Tit 1:8 DRB) But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent:

(Tit 1:9 DRB) Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.

(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.

St. Paul goes on to instruct St. Timothy as to who is a qualified candidate for ordination:

(1Ti 3:1 DRB) A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.

(1Ti 3:2 DRB) It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,

(1Ti 3:3 DRB) Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but

(1Ti 3:4 DRB) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.

(1Ti 3:5 DRB) But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

(1Ti 3:6 DRB) Not a neophyte: lest, being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil.

(1Ti 3:7 DRB) Moreover, he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

(1Ti 5:22 DRB) Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.

We also find in the Scriptures that those in Apostolic Succession had particular and varied duties:

(1Co 12:27 DRB) Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.

(1Co 12:28 DRB) And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

(1Co 12:29 DRB) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

(Eph 4:11 DRB) And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:

(Eph 4:12 DRB) For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

We are further reminded of the foundation of the Church:

(Eph 2:19 DRB) Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God,

(Eph 2:20 DRB) Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

This is only some of the Scriptures speaking of apostolic succession and the duties, need and authority of the office.

Yes, Latin will always be the language of the Church.

(Angelo) Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, have found favor as a group by our Holy Father in Heaven Himself. I will show you how his son Jesus has now, in these last days, appointed the small remnant of his brothers still alive on earth "over all his belongings." Our authority and mandate comes from the highest theocratic source, and depends not on the blessing of any man.

(Cristoiglesia) Well, as a Christian one cannot have a higher source than Jesus who, contrary to your sect, we recognize as God in the Trinity. When you do share this fantasy with me please accompany the explanation with how you justify your perceived appointment with the fact that if what you say is true then it makes Jesus an egregious liar and a pretender as the Messiah. He said that:

the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church,

the Church will endure for all times

He will be with His Church for all times

Your description suggests that His promises were false and that He has abandoned His Church which has failed to endure and did fall into apostasy which means the gates of hell did prevail against the Church. You may also explain why we should trust Him if he is already a liar according to your private revelation. At best your teaching makes Jesus incompetent.

(Angelo) But I'm not going to give it to you all at once. The first part now, then let's discuss it a bit, and if it goes well, I will send more. Like a fine and complex meal, it must be served and consumed slowly, in courses, to be fully appreciated.

(Cristoiglesia) OK

(Angelo) So here's the first part, coming up: Now let's get to your question about Jehovah's Witnesses being the True Church. Or as you put it, "justify your sect."

I agree with you that we must acknowledge the true church and its foundation in order to live eternally in God's new system.
"Upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus said in Matthew 16:18. But where you and I differ, I think, Joseph, is in exactly what is the "church" and what is the "rock" upon which it is built.

I believe your sect, from snippets of what I remember hearing you say, believes the church is not the people, but something else. What? The building? The organization?

The bible, however, always refers to the church as being people, or actually an assembly of persons. (Philemon 2) You must know, with your knowlege of Greek, that the word "ekklesia" literally means "that which is called out," or a group of persons called out from among others for a particular purpose. (Equivalent of the Hebrew qahal'). Ephesians 1:22, 23 likens this church, or congregation, to a human body, with many members but one head, Christ. Our people are likened to a virgin given in marriage to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2; see also Revelation 21:2, 9, 10.) So you see, it is clean, free from worldly corruption and devoted to Christ, its head.

But just who are the members of this congregation? Can they be just anyone who wishes to join? Is this what you teach?

The answer is No. Read Hebrews 12:23 which explains that this is the "church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens." But now "God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased." (1 Corinthians 12:18)

End of part 1.


(Cristoiglesia) The invisible Church are those who have faith in our Lord but one cannot discern who are a part of His invisible Church. However, Jesus and the disciples founded a visible Church and we see the formation of that Church in the book of Acts. This Church is the Catholic Church and is the self-same Church that Jesus prayed that we would all be one within. Otherwise as professed Christians and not being obedient to His Church would place us outside of His will, blessings, promises and grace; if not fully but in great measure. Those outside of His will would be those that some describe as "playing" at Christianity and not following Jesus.

There are some outside of the visible Church which some call a "remnant" that are not be on the path to the narrow gate but may be saved by God's mercy. These are those who seek God but are deceived into being outside of His visible Church by no fault of their own. While not a part of the visible Church they can be considered a part of the invisible Church. So, Jesus and the disciples formed a visible Church as we see after Pentecost recorded in the book of Acts and it could be said that there are those known only to God who are a part of that visible Church against their will or knowledge that will be received in Glory to be a part of the Church Triumphant. But, as one can see in Scripture this is not the ordinary way to be saved through His Church but as an extraordinary example of His mercy.

The gates of hell will never prevail against His visible Church because of the protection of the Church by the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The Church is other worldly and heavenly in its nature and is endowed with its holiness and veracity from its founder Jesus. Jesus gave His promises to His visible Church so that the world could see the testimony of His Church as the pillar and ground of the truth and a shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) It is the will of God that all should be saved by and through His Church as it is the Church that was commissioned to spread the Gospel throughout the world both corporeally and individually. The Church is a refuge and the Ark from the sins and temptations of the world. It is heaven on earth where Christ dwells in the Tabernacles and is worshipped. So if the visible Church ceased to exist it would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Messiah and Savior of the world because all of His promises would be proven false.

Unity requires that there be a knowledge and physical manifestation of that unity. That is the Catholic Church which is the visible Church. The invisible Church does not represent unity because it is known only to God which may be unified in faith but not in purpose.

The purpose of the Church is its testimony in spreading the "good news" to the world. That requires a visible unity. The world will never know if those who are in the invisible Church are preserved but the visible Church will always be the witness to the world that it remains after empires and governments have fallen, political ideologies have been born and died and false and counterfeit religions have come and gone. It is a testimony that Jesus is God of the Trinity and that His will be done on earth as well as in heaven regardless of the snares of Satan and His lies against humanity.

(Angelo) Regarding the previous question I asked you, you wrote: "Clearly Jesus was ressurected in the same Body He was crucified, albeit glorified." However, you failed to complete the answer. Again, I ask, what kind of body does Jesus have now? Is he still in his original material body? Please give specific scriptural answers. How do you define, "glorified?"

(Cristoiglesia) I will discuss this with you when we complete the current discussion. It is not beneficial to anyone for us to jump around from topic to topic. So far you have done nothing to support your contention that your sect has any authority to teach or is even justified as a Christian Church.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

20 December, 2009

Discussing with "Rocky" his criticisms of the Church

Fr. Joseph, I have been a practicing Christian since age eleven. I have studied religions at the college level and since the Internet quite extensively. It is you sir who have been misled. Jesus is presented as enough for my salvation, I do not need a church organization to usher me into traditional teachings which mislead people. I in no way believe all Catholics are non-Christian, but from a church organization I believe it to be in bed with Satan, the Islamic beliefs, are responsible for many of the atrocities which have been committed in history accredited to the Christian faith while performing a subversive agenda under that cloak of innocence--that the Freemasons, Jesuits and many more secret societies are Satan driven and that the New World Order will bring in a new Satanic religion that God will call a halt to the corruption he has allowed so those who are faithful to him will be successfully identified and surely written in the book of life.
I have walked the life of sin, know the signs of Satan in the lives of people in general, in religions in particular and many within the clergy. You have been blinded by the brainwashing of probably a life time within a church that prides itself with false beginnings, false popes, secular popes, perverted behavior which has often been covered up and are not a religion that follows God. You are more steeped in your traditions as were the Pharisees of Jesus' time so are leading people to a false relationship with God and Son.


Rocky,

Now, I won’t get into the non-sensical conspiracy theories of yours so as not to cause you embarrassment but I will comment on some of your other beliefs.

You say that I am misled but you do not give any specifics to your claim. Certainly for most of my life I was misled by Protestant teaching but I am now in the fullness of God’s truth in His own Church which is the only Church that He ever founded. The same Church that He prayed we all be one within as He and the Father are one. So surely His will is that we be unified in His Church and not in tens of thousands of schismatic churches in protest of the only Church He founded.

You say that you do not need His Church. I would guess that is because you are envious of the authority that Jesus gave to His Church. So, He is enough for your salvation without the Church that He built and founded for you based on Himself as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones of the Church. That same foundation remains today with His Church and has been built on through apostolic succession. The teachers and shepherds of His Church are the valid unbroken successors of the original disciples. (See the Book of Acts). This succession has assured humanity and especially Christ’s faithful of the fullness of truth from the same spring of faith of the original followers of our Lord whose successors have passed down the original teaching without flaw or error for 2000 years just as Jesus promised. It seems that if Jesus is enough for your salvation that you would be obedient to His teaching and not be in protest of His Church. Don’t you think He founded a Church for a reason? He not only founded it so that we would have a placed with the assurance of truth but also a place where we can be ministered to so that we may endure to final salvation. He provided this grace through His Sacraments. That is why He said that unless we eat His Body and drink His blood then we cannot have salvation. He described this as the food for salvation comparing it of the same spiritual sustenance as the manna was for the Israelites physical sustenance. Only from His Church can we receive the salvific grace that His Sacraments provide. He gave the authority to His priesthood and only His priesthood to provide this food for eternal life. The Jesuits are certainly anything but a secret society of educators, missionaries and academics. Islam and the freemasons have nothing to do with the Catholic Church nor do we have association with any “New World Order”, what ever that is.

I have never lived a intentional life of sin as you proclaim but I have knowledge of people like yourself who have abandoned their sinful ways to follow Christ. I also have seen sinful people in all walks of life doing horrible ungodly things. Jesus said that His Church would be attacked from without and from within. He said the Church would contain those deceived by evil and powerless against temptation. So, being prepared by my Lord I am not surprised by these events. He also promised that the Church would not fall into apostasy despite the evil influence of individuals and I see His Church as testimony of this fact for 2000 years. I know that His Church gets its veracity from His veracity and form no other source and that is why the Church has never departed from the truth and that is truly a miracle because of the vicious attacks against it by the gates of hell. It has never prevailed and never will. No other Church has these promises from our Lord and especially not the man-made churches of the Protestant Rebellion.

There is no “brainwashing” in the Catholic Church as there is no necessity of it as we have the fullness of God’s truth in His Church and not in a man-made counterfeit. I am a recent convert to Catholic Christianity after most of my adult life of fifty years of age being an anti-Catholic. I knew all the clichés and arguments against the Church but every time I sought to prove the Church wrong biblically, historically or patristically I found out that what they taught and believed is true. Most of my Protestant colleagues who have converted came to the Catholic faith the same way. One common thread among us all was a Berean spirit. We were all disappointed to find out the faith we had nurtured and served our whole life was false. None of us wanted to be Catholic but we could not deny God’s will and we had a responsibility through our divine calling to teach the uncompromised truth. this truth is only in Christ’s own Church the Catholic Church. So, for us blinded is inappropriate but instead it is more as if we had a Damascus Road experience like St. Paul and because of His grace the scales have been lifted from our eyes and we have come into the fullness of truth in His Church. What we found is that there were no false beginnings, false popes or secular popes. Certainly there have been perverted individuals within the Church and the individuals in leadership have not always made the right decisions in retrospect but those leaders have never intended to do what is wrong. We are all human and we all sin both intentionally and inadvertently. Jesus said about this, “who is without sin cast the first stone”. But the Church in its recent scandals has given a good example to others on how these perversions and other evils should be handled. We can only pray that others and in particular our Protestant brothers follow our example and clean up their own houses instead of gloating that we have taken the focus off of their own problem which is many times greater than the Catholic Church. We have none of the traditions of the Pharisees as you claim but instead we are slaves to the Sacred Traditions of the teaching of our Lord through the teaching authority of His Church provided by apostolic succession. Catholics do not teach a false relationship with Christ but instead the corporeal relationship that He created in His Church. Only one verse in all of Scriptures speak of a personal relationship with our Lord which is important but even more important is a corporeal relationship with Him that is the consistent teaching of Scripture which come only through His Church. The visible Church represents the Corpus Christi but we do not recognize the invisible Church. But we do know that the Church is the door to salvation and no one comes to Him but through His Church whether they desire to or not. On the last day, all those that are saved are Catholic. Thank you and God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

14 December, 2009

Criticisms of the Church discussed with "Bro. Michael"

(Bro. Michael) Here's some truth for you: Catholics claim you can and must earn your way into Heaven, which directly contradicts Scripture.

(Cristoiglesia) I would like to thank you for the opportunity and the inspiration to discuss and contend for the faith delivered once for all by my Lord Jesus Christ.

Like so many non-Catholic Christians you are mistaking devotion and obedience to our Lord as an effort of earning one’s way into heaven. The belief in faith alone is a heresy condemned the only place it appears in Scripture by St. James. Even the demons believe. The Catholic Church does not teach that works merit salvation but instead we teach grace through faith. You are accusing us of the same heresy we have already condemned which is Pelagianism. Can you agree that works may come as the result of the believer cooperating with the Holy Spirit and being obedient to God and working within His will? Can you also agree that it is the Holy Spirit that makes us desire Him and become in a familial relationship with Him? Jesus did say that unless we eat His Body and drink His blood we have no life (eternal) in us. We desire His great feast and it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives us that desire and hunger to do His commandment. Surely we do desire eternal life but we do not desire His Body and Blood because of this but it is the Holy Spirit that gives us the desire and compulsion to do His will.

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66
In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:
He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

IN BRIEF

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D).

2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).

________________________________________
34 Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4.
35 Rom 6:8-11.
36 Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4.
37 St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1,24:PG 26,585 and 588.
38 Mt 4:17.
39 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1528.
40 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
41 Rom 3:21-26.
42 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.
43 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 72,3:PL 35,1823.
44 Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16.
45 Rom 6:19,22.
46 Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9.
48 Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.
49 2 Cor 5:17-18.
50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17:PL 44,901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31:PL 44,264.
52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13,36 51:PL 32,868; cf. Gen 1:31.
53 Cf. LG 12.
54 Cf. 1 Cor 12.
55 Rom 12:6-8.
56 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
57 Mt 7:20.
58 Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.
59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102,7:PL 37,1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298,4-5:PL 38,1367.
63 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.
64 Rom 8:28-30.
65 LG 40 § 2.
66 Mt 5:48.
67 LG 40 § 2.
68 Cf. 2 Tim 4.
69 St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. in Cant. 8:PG 44,941C.
70 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576.
71 Rev 21:2.

(Bro, Michael) Catholics pray to dead saints and to Mary, when the only example of prayer ever given by Jesus was to our Heavenly Father.

(Cristoiglesia) Of course the term “dead saints” is an oxymoron. If the saints are dead truly there is no hope for us. The saints are more alive than anyone any are in God’s presence. The saints are our prayer partners. We ask (pray) for them to pray for us. First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.

(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.

The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.

(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.

(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:

(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.

Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:

(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.

I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God. Where in the Bible does it state that we should not pray for each other? It does not and Catholic Christians have been praying for each other for 2000 years.

(Bro. Michael) Catholics happily pray the same thing over and over while clutching a string of beads, which also goes against Scripture.

(Cristoiglesia) Well we are in good company because Jesus prayed the same prayer over and over.

Matthew
26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

26:43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

As you know Jesus taught by words as well as actions and His teaching is without contradiction. Obviously by His words and deed He has violated your admonishment against the Church. He has repeated the same prayer three times. So obviously the repeated praying of a prayer is not the intent of the biblical teaching that you use to criticize the teaching of Christ’s Church and the practice of His faithful.

Now, I assume the Scripture you are using against the Church is the following:

Matthew
6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

When Jesus prayed repetitively was He doing so in “vain”? Of course He was not and neither is a Catholic Christian when we repeat a prayer. He gave us the “Lord’s Prayer” or what Catholics usually refer to as the “Our Father” but did not tell us to pray it only once in our life. We repeat it out of devotion and remembrance of His teaching which is the model for all Christian prayer. What we see from the verse you are using to condemn Catholic Christians is surely not the fact that the heathens prayed repeatedly but that they prayed in “vain”. The words were not said in sincerity but for the benefit for others. Almost always the Rosary prayer is said in private as a personal devotion to Our Lord. The Rosary prayer is not so much said as a prayer of petition but instead it is a prayer of contemplation about the life and passion of our Lord and His atoning work on the Cross. We pray the our Father taught to us by our Lord, repeat the Annunciation of the angel Gabriel of our Lord’s impending birth and ask for our blessed mother given to us by our Lord to pray for us to her Son. Unless you think that contemplating and offering devotion to the life and passion of our Lord is a “vain” effort then we are in perfect accordance with God’s Holy Word.

(Bro. Michael) The Catholic church has added purgatory

(Cristoiglesia) LOL! No we have not added Purgatory but have only recognized the necessity of its existence. If there is no Purgatory heaven will be an empty place and there is little hope for any of us.

There is a common Protestant misunderstanding of purgatory. At least one protestant minister, John Wesley, spoke of perfectionism in this life, possible but rare. He is one of the few to proclaim that one can be sanctified in this life and he left the Moravian Church over this issue after a rebuke by Count Zinzendorf for this teaching.

People in purgatory are already justified by receiving the supernatural eternal life into our souls through Baptism making us a part of the Body of Christ. Those in purgatory have accepted Christ by faith and have not rejected Him by unrepentant mortal sin. It is a place where one is purified by fire (Mal 3:2). Imagine the joy of being in purgatory and knowing that you are there because you have passed judgment and are assured of being in the presence of God in heaven. Purgatory is not an eternal destination, there are only two, heaven or hell.

We should not think of purgatory as some kind of legal punishment for past sins as it would be under the old law. Those in purgatory are already new creatures changed by Christ’s grace, they are the adopted children and part of God’s family in purgatory one receives final discipline and cleansing preparing one for the perfection of heaven. Catholics believe that sanctification is a process and is not completed when one comes to belief. So purgatory is not a suggestion that Christ’s atonement is insufficient but that we have not yet completed our sanctification through the grace of Christ.

Cleansing or sanctification is a gradual process and we must endure to the end to be saved.

(Mat 10:22 DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

(Mat 24:13 DRB) But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

(Mar 13:13 DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.

Catholic soteriology recognizes that for some of us the process was not completed at death or that we died with unrepentant sin.

(Heb 9:27 DRB) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

The judgment is our eternal destiny and for those whose name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life, heaven is assured. But we know that one must be free of sin to be in God’s presence.

(1Ti 6:14 DRB) That thou keep the commandment without spot, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,

It may be that one is not prepared to be in our Lord’s presence as we may still be with spiritual shortcomings or temporal effects of forgiven sins on our soul making it necessary for some form of purification to enter heaven in God’s presence. Since this is a process of purgation it is called purgatory and it is in keeping with prophecy of the prophet Habakkuk who said that only that which is holy may enter heaven.

(Hab 1:13 DRB) Thy eyes are too pure to behold evil, and thou canst not look on iniquity. Why lookest thou upon them that do unjust things, and holdest thy peace when the wicked devoureth the man that is more just than himself?

St. Paul also taught of a process of purgation which may involve suffering on the soul of Christians and in his first letter to the Corinthian Church he describes the process of purgation after death.

(1Co 3:10 DRB) According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation: and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

(1Co 3:11 DRB) For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.

(1Co 3:12 DRB) Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

(1Co 3:13 DRB) Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

(1Co 3:14 DRB) If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

(1Co 3:15 DRB) If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

St. Paul speaks metaphorically that the results of sin that remain on one’s soul is like “wood, hay and straw” and are burned away in the process of final purification to be received in the presence of the Lord. St. Paul also speaks of one’s works as “gold, silver and precious stones” which are refined and retained.

This passage reminds me of what Christ said in the following indicating that some sins may be forgiven after death.

(Mat 12:32 DRB) And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Purgatory is also related to the parable of the unforgiving servant which is as follows…

(Mat 18:32 DRB) Then his lord called him: and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me:

(Mat 18:33 DRB) Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee?

(Mat 18:34 DRB) And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.

After telling the parable Christ emphasizes His message lest it be misunderstood with this warning……..

(Mat 18:35 DRB) So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Christ was warning us of the danger of a hard heart or anger making us unwilling to forgive others. We should acknowledge that these are the signs and example of a defective soul in need of purgation so that he that is imperfect may be in the presence of God and dwell in glory. (See CCC 1030-1032)

( Bro. Michael) holy water

Numbers 5:17 says, "And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water.

(Bro. Michael) scapulars, crucifixes

Of course scapulars have biblical support and refer to the story of Esau who sold his inheritance to his brother. If you remember, his mother clothed him in goatskin so that he could receive the inheritance that rightfully belonged to Esau. The blessed mother clothes us in grace so that when we are presented to our heavenly Father we will receive our inheritance of eternal life.

Crucifixes-

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

St. Paul taught it and we follow it.

(Bro. Michael) and of course the veneration of Mary to Christianity even though not one bit of it is supported by a single word of the Bible.

(Cristoiglesia) People do not realize that to attack the blessed mother is to also attack the atoning work of the father for mankind who sent His only Son for the sins of the world. He was born of a perfect vessel that was fitting for God and the Savior of the world, which was the blessed virgin who remained undefiled by man her whole saintly life. It is to her that we look to pattern our devotion to Christ as it is her that led a perfect life of devotion to Her Son, always pointing humanity to Him as the path to Salvation. She is the mother of the Church as Jesus at the Cross not only gave into her St. John but also to the Church. Jesus said to St. John and thus to the whole Church behold your mother. Likewise she was given the responsibility in eternity to be the mother us all. This is the closest of familial relationships which is for those who are “In Christ”. Just as God says to man, I am yours you are mine to believers, so to does He illustrate this relationship with His words from the Cross. This is why Christians from the beginning have called the blessed Mother of God, our mother. While one may be in the invisible church without this relationship with the blessed mother one cannot be of the Church and in God’s will without the fullness of the relationship which our Savior Has established through His grace for us all who are His.

One cannot reject the blessed mother without rejecting Her Son and the Church that He established with Himself as the cornerstone and the apostles as the 12 foundation stones, who themselves will sit in judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel. It is the structure built on these stones that ensures the endurance of His Church for all times as He promised. It is not a faith built on sand where one can attack those in His family in the most vicious, hideous and indeed, hellish of ways without suffering the eternal punishment of not only the separation of God but also the eternal pain and fires of hell in the company of Satan and all His minions, those seduced by Satan as Jesus said who would cry “Lord, Lord” and then be told that He never knew them and be thrown into the eternal fires designed not for them, as Jesus came to draw all men to Him for eternity, but for Satan and those in a familial unrepentant relationship where they do Satan’s will instead of the will of the Father. Woe to those who never knew Him and who have condemned themselves.

It is sad when one becomes so worldly that they cannot even recognize the heavenly and reject the example of the saints who have gone before who have suffered for their faith. Imagine the blessed mother of God at the foot of the cross watching her Son being defiled in the most brutal and humiliating way knowing that He is innocent of the charges against Him and deserving of all praise of mankind. It was such a horrible scene that even the followers, except the ladies who followed our Lord and the blessed St. John, were the only ones present at His sacrifice. No one else could bear it, either out of fear for retribution or out of love for the one they had followed for so long and learned that He was the Godman and the Savior of the world. St. Peter said it best at Capernaum, “where else can we go as you have the Words of eternal life” when they did not fully understand what He meant from His “hard teaching’ which is made clear on the cross when He said, “It is consummated after drinking the final cup of blessing from the hyssop branch. “It is finished” (consummated) meant that His atonement was just beginning bringing humanity into His presence of the New Covenant and out of the Old familial relationship of the Old Covenant. It was truly realized a few days later when He arose to fulfill prophecy as the final sign of the fulfillment of prophecy. The door is opened to heaven.

The blessed mother when referred to by our Lord as “woman” relates to her importance in the salvific plan of our father. It is her act of devotion and obedience that crushed the head of the Serpent (Satan) and defeated his plan for the condemnation of man. Sin entered the world through Eve and Satan and sin was defeated by the blessed Mother of our Lord. If she is not in heaven and saved by our Lord then there is no hope for us for none of us can ever reach the devotion and obedience of the one who is called by the angel of God the most blessed among women and consequently the most blessed of all humanity past, present and future. So do not let those who attack our mother defeat our hope in her Son and His promise for which His sacrifice has provided.

(Bro. Michael) I could go on like this for a while, but you get the idea. Catholics are to Christianity what the Pharisees were to Judaism.

(Cristoiglesia) I understand that this is your contention but you have been unable so far to support your hypothesis.

Thank you again for the opportunity and inspiration to contend for the faith of our Lord and His chosen disciples which is contained in His Church which is called the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. The enduring testimony of the Church for 2000 years proves the veracity of His promise that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church and He remains with His Church for all times. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

09 December, 2009

The Mormon Church discussed with "Cagundude1"

(Cajundude1) You indicated that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the church of Satan. I see nothing that refers to Satan in the title.

(Cristoiglesia) I guess if it is not in the title of the sect than it can not be true. (Sarcasm intended) Certainly it is a counterfeit Church created by Satan through men like Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. It does not have their names in the title yet they founded the sect.

(Cajundude1) Apparently you know very little of the doctrine and how it was organized. It is not Joseph Smith's Church. It is Jesus Christ's Church. The Book of Mormon (the stick of Judah) was not written by Joseph Smith. It is scripture kept by 'the other sheep', simply translated from gold plates kept for that purpose.

(Cristoiglesia) I do not claim to be an expert in Mormonism. My areas of expertise are early ecclesiastical history, Latin, Old Testament studies and patristics. However, I have read your doctrinal books like the BOM, D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. I have also read most of the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

The problem you have is supporting your claim that it is Jesus Christ’s Church. I realize the BOM was not written by Joseph Smith as he was just a con man or the marketing arm of the establishment of the Church. It was Sidney Rigdon that wrote the Book using another’s writing as inspiration. There were no
Gold plates nor were there other sheep. If there were, where are they now? Where is the historical or archeological evidence that they ever existed? The Church established by Jesus was the Catholic Church at Pentecost in Judea.

(Cajundude1) Since "the gates of hell" would never prevail against it, God and Christ had to restore the Church in keeping with it's original establishment. So much have been left out of it in the centuries that the Melchizedek priesthood had to be restored to fulfill it's purpose. We are in the last dispensation. It must be restored in it's fulness. We are redeeming our dead. The Catholic Church is not doing that.

(Cristoiglesia) You are correct, if the veracity of Christ’s ministry is kept then His promises to His Church must remain. In the first century when He made those promises He was speaking of the Church He created with Him as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones. This was the solid foundation He spoke of and not a foundation of sand that He spoke against. He said that His Church would endure until the Parousia. He said that the gates of hell, during this time, would NOT prevail against it. Your sect claims that this was a lie and that His Church did not endure nor did it remain the pillar and foundation of the truth as the Bible states. Starting out claiming Jesus lied is not the same solid foundation that Jesus used to build His Church. But yours is truly a foundation built on sand. If Jesus was not a liar or an incompetent as your sect suggests then the Mormon sect is a pretender and indeed a counterfeit Church whose foundation is from an evil source and founded by those doing Satan’s will and not the will of Jesus. Another problem you have is that the Church still exists as it did at its establishment.

Jesus is the high priest in the order of Melchizedek and remains the high priest of the only Church He ever established. He does not need to be restored as He remains. The fullness of truth remains in His Church. We cannot redeem our dead, as they have already received their eternal destiny. No one can do this according to the teaching of Jesus and the disciples. When one dies then comes the judgment.

(Cajundude1) Now I am not knocking the Catholic Church or it's followers, but if you don't have the keys to enter by the gates of heaven, you must stay out.

(Cristoiglesia) According to the Scriptures the keys to the gates of heaven were given to St. Peter which has been passed down to His successors in an unbroken line. According to the Prophet Isaiah St. Peter’s office is the office of the prime minister of Christ’s Church and has all of God’s authority on earth. These keys remain today with His true and only Church the Catholic Church. So, according to your beliefs, you or no other Mormon may enter heaven and not Catholics who are the enduring Church prophesied.

(Cajundude1)I was a Catholic for 45 years, and I know that I received no satisfactory answers to my questions there.

(Cristoiglesia) Following Christ is no about finding a place where you can get satisfactory answers. But it is about being humble and obedient to His will. He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest that we all be one in His Church just as He and the Father are one. You and your Mormon brothers and sisters have separated yourself from that unity which is His will. The faith that you describe is exactly the faith that St. Paul warned about saying that there would come a time when some would not be able to endure sound doctrine and gather around them those who are false teachers that satisfy their itching ears.

(Cajundude1) With Christ's restored church I see that it's built upon a rock that have no cracks in it. The doctrine is solid. There is no flaws in it. The faithful members in the Church are good people, the best that can walk in society. Satan's Church would not be able to say that because it is contrary to Old Scratch's goals. I make truth my armor, and wish you will continue to search for it.

(Cristoiglesia) Based on Scripture, history and patristic evidence I can see absolutely no foundation for your sect not can I find any connection whatsoever to Jesus. Additionally, I see no veracity for the claim that the Church was ever in need of restoration or that it ever fell into apostasy. I probably would not be Christian if it had because I would not follow the teaching of an incompetent liar as is your claim about Christ. As for your doctrine, I do not care about it being solid as much as I look for truth instead. However, I know that there are a lot of flaws in Mormon doctrine that are irreconcilable with Christian doctrine.

I am sure that the great majority of Mormons are good people. Good people are no more or less vulnerable to deception than anyone else. But, even if they are the best in the world, Christ’s Church is not worldly but Spiritual. In the Mormon Church there is a lot of lies and heresy mixed with their truth but in Christ’s Church there is the fullness of truth, free of apostasy that will remain true for all times. I am encouraged that if you take your own advice and you truly continue to look for the truth that you will come Home to the only Church founded by Jesus which is undeniably, the Catholic Church. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

07 December, 2009

False teaching about Catholics discussed with Rose S

(Rose S) Thank you for responding back. I didn't think you would. Please understand that i'm not trying to be a jerk I felt that I was saying truth. I really don't know how or where I learned that. my family isn't religious. Well, they believe in God but we never went to church or prayed or anything. We never even talked about God. I went to church with my boyfriend's parents once in a while when I was younger. I didn't learn from any kind church or anything. I guess it was just something over time that was put together combining experience and witnessing events and reading the bible. I know that Catholics worship Mother Mary. I have heard my aunt, who was catholic when she was younger, talking about saying hail mary. I took that as praying to mary which is agains the bible because of John 14:6.

(Cristoiglesia) I understand, as I said to you before my purpose is just to inform you so that you will not continue to bear false witness against the Church. I can understand when one cobbles together impressions from others actions and comments and reading the Bible without any training and the influence of sound teachers that they can come to incorrect conclusions as you have about the teaching and practices of Christ’s Church.

First of all, Catholic Christians do not worship the blessed mother of God. Catholic Christians are forbidden to worship anyone or anything but God. We do not pray to her either. You may see the word pray in reference to her but the Blessed mother we are making a request which is the archaic meaning of the word pray in English which is synonymous with “ask”. This explains it from elsewhere in my blog:

First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.

(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.

The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.

(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.

(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:

(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.

Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:

(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.

I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God.

You also misunderstand the Rosary prayer that is said by many Catholics. It seems that you think for some reason that it is an exaltation of the blessed mother. It is not except to acknowledge her blessing to be chosen as the mother of God incarnate. The purpose of the prayer is to do what the blessed mother always does and that is to point to her son for our devotion. Here are the twenty mysteries of the Rosary that we contemplate on while saying the prayer:


THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES

The Annunciation

The Visitation

The Birth of our Lord, Jesus

The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple

The Finding of Jesus in the Temple

THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES

The Baptism of our Lord

The Wedding Feast at Cana

The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God

The Transfiguration

The Institution of the Eucharist

THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES

The Agony in the Garden

The Scourging at the Pillar

The Crowning of Thorns

The Carrying of the Cross

The Crucifixion

THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES

The Resurrection

The Ascension

The Descent of the Holy Spirit

The Assumption

The Crowning of our Blessed Mother as Queen of Heaven

Now, you use the following verse to support your beliefs:

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No Catholic believes or is taught anything different from what St. John taught. We teach that Jesus is the sole mediator between the Father and man. The blessed mother is not a mediator in this sense but instead she is an intercessor as anyone is who prays for another. Prayer for each other as I have already shown you is an expression of love for one another.

(Rose S) I also know that catholics have confession. I know that because my neice (from marriage) was talking about how she used to have to go to confession. We are not supposed to confess to man anything. We are supposed to pray to Jesus. Going back to John 14:6.

(Cristoiglesia) Christ instituted the sacraments purposefully. The sacrament called reconciliation or penance is what we call our actions when we go to confession. Going to confession and confessing to a priest is the normative way of reconciling oneself back into God's family when we have committed a mortal sin. It is the biblical way corresponding to Jesus' teaching as recorded by the apostle John in John 20: 22-23. What we learn from John is the authority given to the priests is not only to forgive sins but also to retain sins. Jesus commanded the authority to be used. It is the duty given by Jesus for the priest to measure the contrition of the penitent and act accordingly.

However, one must repent and pray sincerely to God as an act of contrition before one enters the confessional. The priest represents Jesus by acting in persona Christi and for the entire family of God represented by the Church militant who is harmed by the sin of another. No sin is private but all sin affects others. Jesus described this relationship as a vine with Him as the vine and we as the branches (John 15:5). If one member of the branch is sick then all
the branches are affected and suffer as a result. Because of our familial relationship with each other Jesus created a means of confession so that all those affected in His family are represented by the priest as is God. The acts of sin and forgiveness are not private matters.

The priest here does not replace Christ but instead acts in persona Christi in providing the Sacrament and in turn God’s grace that it confers. Certainly Christ is only giving this authority based on His own authority. We do not forgive sins instead of Christ but with Christ.

(Rose S) I also know that the priests are called father. Which God says specifically not to call anybody on earth father. Only he is to be called father.

(Cristoiglesia) From the early Church we find that clergy were addressed as father. There are those with little knowledge of history or hermeneutical discipline such as understanding Scriptures within context, who believe that the Bible prohibits one from calling a priest father. The words they rely on come directly from Christ:

(Mat 23:9 DRB) And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

Keeping the verse in context let us look at the verse preceding this verse:

(Mat 23:8 DRB) But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master: and all you are brethren.

Rabbi means teacher and the Latin word for teacher is doctor so anyone using these terms as well are violating the literal interpretation of the text.

Let us look at the verse after verse 9:

(Mat 23:10 DRB) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ.

There is no way that the interpretation could be correct if one reads and understands the Matthew passage in context. He is clearly teaching that one should not look to any human authority as our teacher, father, master, doctor or other titles of respect but instead give to God those things that are reserved for Him. Do you also refuse to call people doctor, teacher, professor, mister, or master? All of these are forbidden as well if we are to accept a literal understanding.

Context also requires that we investigate what the other Scriptures say as well as the understanding of these words by those who followed Christ. There are many instances where the writers of the New Testament contradict a literal understanding of not calling a man father, teacher or master. Consider the following verses:

(Act 5:34 DRB) But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while.

(Col 4:1 DRB) Masters, do to your servants that which is just and equal: knowing that you also have a master in heaven.

(2Ti 1:11 DRB) Wherein I am appointed a preacher and an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles.

Let us examine the statements of St. Stephen to see if he understood Christ to be speaking literally….In is soliloquy (Acts Chapter 7) before the Sanhedrin before his stoning to martyrdom he used the term father in referring to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as fathers and also to his Israelite ancestors as fathers.

St. John the beloved disciple also did not understand Christ to be teaching literally as we can see in the following verses:

(1Jn 2:13 DRB) I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.

(1Jn 2:14 DRB) I write unto you, babes, because you have known the Father. I write unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.

(1Jn 2:15 DRB) Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.

(1Jn 2:16 DRB) For all that is in the world is the concupiscence of the flesh and the concupiscence of the eyes and the pride of life, which is not of the Father but is of the world.

St. Paul also had a different understanding of Christ’s words than the literalists:

(1Co 4:14 DRB) I write not these things to confound you: but I admonish you as my dearest children.

(1Co 4:15 DRB) For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.

(1Co 4:16 DRB) Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye followers of me as I also am of Christ.

St. Paul was speaking of the fact that he is called to shepherd the flock as are all priests. We not only give birth to the Christian through Baptism but also nourish the faithful with the Holy Eucharist and God’s Word. We care for them and bind their spiritual wounds through the delivery of the Sacraments. It is no wonder that we are called father as we care for our Church family as a father cares for his own family.

(Rose S) I've seen on something that the catholics took out the second commandment (idolatry) and bascially moved them all up and split the last commandment into two. We aren't to change anything that God gave us. Revelation 22:18-19. Thank you. I am excited to see what you have to say. God bless.

No, we did not take out any of the commandments.

Here is Exodus 20 from the Protestant KJV:

Exodus 20

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deuteronomy 5

7Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17Thou shalt not kill.

18Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19Neither shalt thou steal.

20Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The following is from the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible:

Exodus 20

3Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

5Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

6And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.

8Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.

10But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house: neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

18And all the people saw the voices and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mount smoking: and being terrified and struck with fear, they stood afar off,

19Saying to Moses: Speak thou to us, and we will hear: let not the Lord speak to us, lest we die.

20And Moses said to the people: Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that the dread of him might be in you, and you should not sin.

21And the people stood afar off. But Moses went to the dark cloud wherein God was.

22And the Lord said to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: You have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.

23You shall not make gods of silver, nor shall you make to yourselves gods of gold.

24You shall make an altar of earth unto me, and you shall offer upon it your holocausts and peace offerings, your sheep and oxen, in every place where the memory of my name shall be: I will come to thee, and will bless thee.

25And if thou make an altar of stone unto me, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones: for if thou lift up a tool upon it, it shall be defiled.

26Thou shalt not go up by steps unto my altar, lest thy nakedness be discovered.
Deuteronomy 5

7Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.

8Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.

9Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,

10And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

11Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.

12Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.

14The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.

15Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.

16Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.

17Thou shalt not kill.

18Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19And thou shalt not steal.

20Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Two things happen when this false accusation is made against Christ’s Church. The accusers do not take into consideration that the English version is a translation from the original language which had no punctuation and the verses were not numbered. So translators have some liberty in numbering and punctuating the verses. They may not all do it the same way. That is why those of us who are clergy and academics study the original languages and biblical hermeneutics. It is only natural that the uneducated may misunderstand differences in interpretations. Critics of Catholic Christianity use these differences to make pejorative statements about Catholic teaching and in this case it is to attack the Church falsely by claiming that we are idolatrous in some way and that we do not forbid idolatry. This is not at all the truth. This is the teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic which is the official teaching from the teaching authority of the Church called the Magisterium:

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Now you also questioned the application of the following verses:

Revelation 22:18-19 (King James Version)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Of course, St. John was obviously speaking of His prophecy alone as when he wrote the Apocalypse there was no biblical Canon and there would not be for another 350 years. But I agree with you that adding or taking away from the Bible is a great error. Of course, the Protestants removed 7 books of the Old Testament without any authority at all. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph