10 August, 2009

Discussion with Esperenza who attacks Christ's Church

(Esperenza) The Catholic Church is not Jesus Church.

(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps you can share with me why you would make such a statement in contrast to the evidence to the contrary. In the Scriptures we see Jesus using construction vernacular in founding the visible Church. He calls Himself the cornerstone and the disciples the twelve foundation stones. He tells Simon that He is founding the Church upon his leadership of the disciples. We see in the book of Acts the Church being formed along the lines of apostolic succession.

The first act of ordination is the selection and ordination of St. Matthias to replace Judas among the twelve. We see the disciples selecting their own disciples, training them and ordaining them to be Deacons, Presbyters and Bishops. We see these ordained clergy going about their work and God’s work preaching the gospel and founding congregations among the Jews and the Gentiles. There is but one Church and this Church continues and is called Christian and Catholic at Antioch in about the year 107 AD to 110AD by a disciple of two of the twelve named St. Ignatius of Antioch. The Ante-Nicene fathers testify in their writings of the one Church established by Christ and the faithful continuation of that Church.

We see the early Church writing down some of the teaching of Jesus which is contained in the New Testament of Scriptures to preserve these teachings and for them to be used as part of the "regula fidei" of the Church. These are writings to be used within the community of the Church and not to be used outside of the visible Church.

We see the Church fighting against heresies and in doing so forming doctrine. The first challenge is the Arian heresy led by the Bishop Arius which was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325AD. Out of this Council came the defining of the Trinity that had been believed from the very beginning of the Church as a foundational teaching of Christianity but which was being attacked. The Holy Spirit through the Church prevailed as it did when the nature of Christ was challenged by the Gnostics and others and the Church subsequently declared Jesus to be fully man and fully God. Other challenges ensued as ”the gates of hell” tried to prevail against the Church.

Through these spiritual battles the Church has proved that it is the Church spoken of in Scriptures and consisting of the exemplification of Christ’s promises to humanity about His Church. History records that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus and the disciples. The Church represents the enduring Church that Jesus promised having lasted for 2000 years and is the only Church that can claim with veracity to represent this promise. It is the Church that has protected the faith and has never fallen into apostasy giving testimony before the world that the “gates of hell” will never prevail. It has continuously proven to be the “shining city on the hill” and an example to the world and most importantly of all the Church is the epitome of the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
How can anyone who has done their due diligence by studying history, Scriptures and the Patristic evidence come to any other conclusion than that the Church called Catholic is the very same Church founded by Jesus upon the “Rock” of St. Peter. If there is evidence of another show it before God and men or else become silent.

(Esperenza) It does not follow the bible.

(Cristoiglesia) That is impossible. If you believe it does not then you must be in error because the Church can never disagree with the Scriptures. You must realize that the Bible is about the Church, the Church is not about the Bible as it is in Protestant sects. The Bible follows the Church.

Where the Protestants err is by not approaching Scriptures in a scholarly fashion using proper hermeneutical principals but instead approach Scriptures in an eisegetical fashion. That is why Protestant sects have so many different heresies mixed in with their truth. They also continue to use syncretism to blend their Humanist ideas and philosophies with biblical Christianity causing great errors. With the fundamentalist faction of Protestantism their teaching is greatly influenced by their hatred for Christ’s Church and they desperately and erroneously make doctrines opposing the Church that Christ created which has the fullness of truth through Sacred Tradition.

(Esperenza) Your churches are full of idols. You wear a cross around your neck, which is idol worship and also the symbol of a penis and oppossion to God.”

There is no idolatry in he Catholic Church. All you have to do to confirm this is check the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you will find that the worship of anyone or anything but God is strictly forbidden. By definition an idol is an object or person who is worshipped. We worship neither.

Yes, I do wear a cross around my neck as well as the Lord’s Prayer which is inscribed on the back of the cross. This cross reminds me of Jesus and the devotion I am called to have for Him. It also reminds me of what He did for me in dying on the cross so that I can have eternal life in Him. He also follows the teaching of St. Paul recorded in Scriptures to preach Christ crucified to the non-believers. This is not idol worship as I do not worship the object but the living Christ.

Now, I am not sure what you mean by “the symbol of the penis”. You might want to share this in some detail so that I can respond appropriately but if I may, I would assume that what you are referring to is the fact that the early Church used a symbol of the penis to represent God the Father. You might explain why you think this is in opposition to God and might even explain why the leadership of the first and second century Church did not have opposition to this symbolism.

(Esperenza) You beleive in the trinity which is a pagan idea that infiltrated the church and has no basis whatsoever in the bible. Nowhere do you find the word trinity in the bible or that teaching.

Yes, the Church has taught the Trinity from the beginning as an extension of the teaching of Jesus and the disciples. Jesus being fully God and fully man is a foundational teaching of Christianity. To depart from this teaching is to cease to be Christian. The early opposition to this teaching is personified in the teaching of the Bishop Arius. He led an intellectual revolt against the Church in the fourth century promoting the belief that Jesus was not God and questioning His divinity. The powerful Bishop was opposed by one called by the Holy Spirit who was a lowly young Deacon named Athanasius who was accompanying His Bishop to the Council in Nicaea which was convened to discuss the Arian heresy. At first Athanasius alone stood up to the powerful Bishop Arius but by his inspired refutation of the teaching of Arius he emboldened others to also come to the defense of the teaching of the disciples. This became the lifelong work of St. Athanasius and the teaching of the disciples prevailed despite the powerful Bishop and even the support of Arius by the Emperor Constantine.

No the word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is clearly there. The word Trinity came about as a descriptive term of the biblical teaching of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being one. It was defined in the Nicene Creed and in the Athanasian Creeds of the Church.

Satan would consider his greatest accomplishment to deny the divinity of Jesus in the Trinity as it would mean that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied and this would mean that the world still awaits the Messiah. It would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Savior of the World. He is not a liar or a pretender but instead our Lord and God.

(Esperenza) Your church teaches lies and misleads the people.

(Cristoiglesia) Your statement here is impossible because the Scriptures say that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.

(Esperenza)Your church is blood guilty and disgusting.

It seems as though you are one that personifies the following:

(2Ti 4:3) For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

(2Ti 4:4) And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

(Esperenza) I speak for Jesus and declare the Catholic church corrupt and ready for destruction by Jesus.

(Cristoiglesia) It seems as if you believe you can usurp the power and the authority of Christ who founded His Church and promised it to be the enduring Church without apostasy. The Church is the ONLY testimony to the veracity of Jesus’ words. If the Church has indeed become corrupt then it would only prove Jesus to be a liar but , of course this cannot be proven and is just the desperate rant of one influenced and doing the work of the great deceiver Satan who follows his doctrines of men and denies Jesus to be God and His divinity as a result.

Jesus also spoke to your desire that the Church be destroyed when He said that the Church would endure until He comes again to judge the quick and the dead. In other words, Jesus said that your desire is not possible.

May our Lord have mercy on you so filled with hatred that you feel justified in attacking Christ’s Church because its teaching does not match your doctrines of men in your man made sect.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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