03 September, 2009

Discussion with one who calls himself "The Bible" about his problems with the Church

(The Bible) This is my witness. All the devout Catholics that I ever met were ignorant of the Bible.

(Cristoiglesia) The greatest theological minds over the last 2000 years have been Catholic Christians. Catholics generally are more knowledgeable of the Scriptures than Protestants since Catholic Christians are taught the whole Bible instead of just certain proof texts to support man made doctrines and practices like the Protestants. It sounds as if you either have not met many Catholic Christians or are just making an unknowledgeable presumption.

(The Bible) I was raised Catholic so I know from personal experience.

(Cristoiglesia) What personal experience was that? As evidenced by your statements in this commentary it appears that you actually learned very little of Catholic teaching. Perhaps you could explain why with your personal experience you have so many misconceptions about Catholic teaching and practice.

(The Bible) Many repeat the rosary over and over.

(Cristoiglesia) Some pray the Rosary daily and some Catholics never pray the
Rosary. Are you trying to claim that the Bible forbids repeated prayers?

(KJV) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The Rosary is not an example of vain repetition. Catholic Christians do not say prayers in vain.

(The Bible) When I went to the confessional, I was told to repeat some prayers, and my sins would be absolved.

(Cristoiglesia) No, your sins were absolved by the words of the priest acting in persona Christi. The prayers you were told to say were penance or punishment for your sin. Even though a sin is absolved there is still a penalty to pay. If you were guilty of murder and went before a judge and stated that you were truly sorry for your crime would the judge say since you are sorry then you should not be punished. Of course not, there is still punishment to be paid.

(The Bible)They make graven images of things from heaven, and the earth below, then bow down and pray. I've seen it over and over, and no priest stops them.

(Cristoiglesia) Catholic teaching forbids the making of idols or the worship of anything or anyone but God. You have seen nothing as you have not power to see another’s heart or to know whom they worship. If a Catholic Christian was to worship an idol they would cease to be a Catholic Christian. We never stop anyone from praying to God. Have you ever heard a Catholic say that a statue or other work of religious art is an idol? Of course not and you never will because they do not believe this nonsense that you presume out of ignorance. No Catholic Christian would ever worship an idol.

(The Bible) You may have some convincing things on your website, but what I see in action is not what the Bible tells us.

(Cristoiglesia) Thank you, I just tell the truth. It appears by your commentary that what you see is seen from the eyes of prejudice, bigotry and hatred with a good measure of pride thrown in. You should confirm your beliefs about Catholic Christians before committing the sin against them of bearing false witness.

(The Bible) The Catholic church used to have all the mass in Latin, and the Bible was written in Latin only.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, Latin is the language of the Church and has been from the beginnings of the Church. In the first century and beyond it was the language of scholars but it was not written only in Latin. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek which originally was called the Septuagint. This is the Bible used by Jesus and the disciples as well as the New Testament authors. It was the only Old Testament used by the early Church. In the fifth century St. Jerome put together a Latin translation from the existing Latin, Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew texts. It was called the Latin Vulgate. This was the vernacular translation of its day in that all scholarly people and the educated spoke, read and wrote Latin in the Western world. The Mass held in Latin made it possible for anyone to understand the Mass wherever they were in the world. I personally believe that it was better when it was in a language that everyone understood. I think that the changing of the Mass into vernacular languages has caused confusion instead of understanding.

(The Bible) If the Catholic church has changed, then that's good, because I accepted Christ when I was Catholic. I was told that the sacrements are necessary for salvation. That is what I heard, and saw with my own two eyes. They missed the mark of salvation by grace through faith by a million miles.

(Cristoiglesia) The Catholic Church does not change but continues the fullness of truth as was promised by Jesus when He said that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church.

Jesus was the one that taught the Sacraments. He said the following about the Sacrament of Baptism:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is what Jesus said about the Sacrament of the Eucharist:
Joh 6:53 (6:54) Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

Joh 6:54 (6:55) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Joh 6:55 (6:56) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

Joh 6:56 (6:57) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.

Are you sure that as one protesting the teaching of Christ and the disciples that you are doing the right thing by rejecting the teaching of Christ’s own Church and Scriptures for the doctrines and sects of men. Surely you can see from Scriptures that it is Christ himself who said that the Sacraments are necessary for eternal life.

(The Bible) Jesus gave us communion to remember him by, not as some ritual that turns the bread and wine into his literal blood, and body. Can't you see that it symbolized what he did on the Cross? May God open your eyes to the truth. Many are losing their faith because they can't believe that the bread is actually the body of Christ.

(Cristoiglesia) Catholics see the Scriptures written about the Eucharist as literal teaching by Jesus and have interpreted Jesus’ words as literal since before the NT Scriptures were written as recorded in Scripture. Catholics find no reason to interpret Jesus’ teaching to be anything but literal from a hermeneutical, historical or theological perspective.

Some Protestants, on the other hand, are very much like the proto-Protestants who were former disciples and left Jesus after His teaching in John 6, about the commandment to eat His Body and drink His Blood. They remain in the carnal sense and deny the miracle of the Eucharist. They believe that instead of being present at the one sacrifice of Christ, that what Jesus instituted is a symbolic ordinance instead.

So, what we are speaking of is two totally different practices. The first identical to what the apostles taught and put into practice which is the real presence and the second a modernist interpretation of a man Ulrich Zwingli which is a symbolic ordinance. The first is actually Christ on the Cross where the worshippers are at the foot of the cross; the second is just a remembering of what Christ did as recorded in the Bible. When a Catholic Christian remembers Christ’s sacrifice it is from being there, when a Protestant remembers Christ’s sacrifice it is recalling what is written in Scriptures about the event. Certainly, one should be able to understand the level of passion one would have after being at the foot of the cross compared to the level of one just remembering what is written in a book. So even though some do not take it lightly, even though they do not believe, it cannot be the same passion for an exercise or ordinance in supposed obedience, as the Protestant act can be described; to the Catholic practice of being present with the living corporeal Christ at the cross and eating His real body and Blood as He commanded.

It must be noted for understanding that for many of the Reformers that this approach by Zwingli was necessary to give some credibility to the new Protestant movement which denied the successive apostolic leadership of the Church established by Christ. These reformers knew full well that they had no true legitimacy and no authority from Christ. They also knew that without a legitimate episcopacy that they could not continue Holy Orders, the Sacraments nor do they have the authority to confect the Eucharist which authority can only be given by Christ through the Church. Therefore, they could not continue the Eucharist even if they desired without a valid priesthood.

So, I am not saying that I do not believe that Protestant communion service is not special or a sign of unity but it is to me a sign of unity for a false, heretical belief outside of historical, Traditional and orthodox Christianity and is a doctrine of men warned about in the Gospels.

(Mat 15:7 DRB) Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying:(Mat 15:8 DRB) This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.

(Mat 15:9 DRB) And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

(Mar 7:5 DRB) And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?

(Mar 7:6 DRB) But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

(Mar 7:7 DRB) And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.

(Mar 7:8 DRB) For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these

.(Mar 7:9 DRB) And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

(Luk 6:46 DRB) And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

(The Bible) They dismiss religion as a sham, because of so many man made doctrines getting in the way.

(Cristoiglesia) Just as St. Peter said in Capernaum some of the things Jesus taught is hard teaching and may require one to understand through the Spirit instead of by carnal reason. The doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines taught by the God/man Jesus. If we truly accept Him we must accept His teaching no matter how hard that teaching is or how it conflicts with our carnal reason. What He teaches is spirit and life:

Joh 6:63 (6:64) It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

The Church cannot teach falsely to appeal to those who cannot or refuse to receive the truth even if they claim to be Christians.

St. Paul prophesied about such people.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming and his kingdom:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

2Ti 4:5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry. Be sober.

Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(The Bible) When Peter confessed who Jesus was Jesus said "God revealed it to you". He didn't mean just Peter personally, others came to the same conclusion.

(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps others were also aware, but it was Simon who was asked and it is he who gave the answer for all who believed. Jesus saw into his heart and knew it was he who is worthy to be the leader of the apostles and the one with the authority of the keys.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

It is here where Jesus gave all authority to His Church.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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