01 October, 2009

"Firefly" defending bearing false witness against Christ's Church

(firefly) I'm not lieing and I suspect that you know that,which is why you are desperately trying to get me to recant. the catholic church is a lie and I will say it till I die. you think I will be judged for saying this but the fact is that you will be judged for worshipping idols and leading people to hell.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes you did bear false witness against Christ’s Church which is a sin against the Decalogue. It is acceptable to honestly disagree with Catholic teaching but not acceptable to lie about what the Church teaches. You will be judged because the Bible tells us that “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess”.

It is very sad that you say that you do not bear false witness against the Church and in your next statement you convict yourself of what you deny. You claim that I and I would assume other Catholics worship idols. Do you know that any Catholic who did such a thing as you say would be committing a mortal sin? You should know because Catholic teaching is easy to verify as it is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which says the following:


2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catholic Christians are forbidden to worship anyone or anything but God.

(firefly) it is you that needs to get your relationship with Christ in a right place my friend.

(Cristoiglesia) Do you not think that lecturing me on my relationship with Christ is quite presumptuous especially coming from one who is in protest with His Church and refuses the most intimate relationship of eating His really true and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity even though it is the food for eternal life which Jesus Himself commanded us to receive? I do as He commanded and do my best to live within His will.

(firefly) the true church is the body of believers, not a building with it's fine gold statues and not any organization who hold to thier traditions before they hold to the word of God.

(Cristoiglesia) It is sad that you do not understand what is Christ’s Church. The invisible Church are those who have faith in our Lord but one cannot discern who are a part of His invisible Church. However, Jesus and the disciples founded a visible Church and we see the formation of that Church in the book of Acts. This Church is the Catholic Church and is the self-same Church that Jesus prayed that we would all be one within. Otherwise as professed Christians and not being obedient to His Church would place us outside of His will, blessings, promises and grace; if not fully but in great measure. Those outside of His will would be those that some describe as "playing" at Christianity and not following Jesus.

There are some outside of the visible Church which some call a "remnant" that are not be on the path to the narrow gate but may be saved by God's mercy. These are those who seek God but are deceived into being outside of His visible Church by no fault of their own. While not a part of the visible Church they can be considered a part of the invisible Church. So, Jesus and the disciples formed a visible Church as we see after Pentecost recorded in the book of Acts and it could be said that there are those known only to God who are a part of that visible Church against their will or knowledge that will be received in Glory to be a part of the Church Triumphant. But, as one can see in Scripture this is not the ordinary way to be saved through His Church but as an extraordinary example of His mercy.

The gates of hell will never prevail against His visible Church because of the protection of the Church by the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The Church is other worldly and heavenly in its nature and is endowed with its holiness and veracity from its founder Jesus. Jesus gave His promises to His visible Church so that the world could see the testimony of His Church as the pillar and ground of the truth and a shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) It is the will of God that all should be saved by and through His Church as it is the Church that was commissioned to spread the Gospel throughout the world both corporeally and individually. The Church is a refuge and the Ark from the sins and temptations of the world. It is heaven on earth where Christ dwells in the Tabernacles and is worshipped. So if the visible Church ceased to exist it would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Messiah and Savior of the world because all of His promises would be proven false.

Unity requires that there be a knowledge and physical manifestation of that unity. That is the Catholic Church which is the visible Church. The invisible Church does not represent unity because it is known only to God which may be unified in faith but not in purpose.

The purpose of the Church is its testimony in spreading the "good news" to the world. That requires a visible unity. The world will never know if those who are in the invisible Church are preserved but the visible Church will always be the witness to the world that it remains after empires and governments have fallen, political ideologies have been born and died and false and counterfeit religions have come and gone. It is a testimony that Jesus is God of the Trinity and that His will be done on earth as well as in heaven regardless of the snares of Satan and His lies against humanity.

Sometimes Christians speak past each other because of a different understanding of terminology. If one is to have a discussion with any understanding, one must be of the same accord on the definitions. It appears when one speaks of traditions; one may be speaking of two different things. When a Catholic Christian speaks of Traditions, he speaks of Sacred Traditions that are a part of the deposit of truth contained in the teaching of the Church, which is the teaching of Christ and the apostles as well as those writings that the Church have determined to be inspired and those decisions reached through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Ecumenical Council. Sacred Tradition contains all of the Word of God and not just the written Word but reflects Christ’s work in the Church and the work of the Paraclete leading the Church to all truth. When critics of Christ’s Church speak of traditions, they are speaking of the traditions that were rebuked by Jesus when speaking to the Pharisees or subsequent traditions similar or within the same spirit as those traditions. The Catholic Church has no traditions that are not in accordance with not only the written Word but all of the Word of God, which is a measure of veracity that includes and surpasses the rule of faith professed in the heresy of Sola Scriptura.

There is no instruction in the written Word that it is the entire Word, nor that it should be the only rule of faith. The fact is that the Scriptures teach the exact opposite of this view. St. Paul teaches that the oral as well as the written Word are Sacred Traditions that one should hold fast to. Scriptures teach that not all is contained of what Christ taught in the Scriptures but also that we can still find comfort in the teaching, in that, the Holy Spirit will lead the Church to all truth. We also see from Scripture that there is only one book that claims inspiration, which is St. John’s Apocalypse, yet we can trust in the authority of the Church of the inspiration of all the written Word. It is Sacred Tradition that claims the inspiration of Scriptures which Protestants accept yet they deny the authority of the Church despite the Bible teaching this same authority. There is no consistency to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura as the Bible would not be believed or have any authority if it was not for the Church under the authority of Christ and the inspiration through council to proclaim it the Word of God.

(firefly) I am not a J.W. or a mormon or even a protestant,
I am born again and washed by the blood of the Lamb,
I am not full of pride and say that it is what I have done that saved me, but it is by what Christ did that saves.

(Cristoiglesia) Certainly you prevaricate when you say you are not a Protestant but yet claim to be a follower of the teaching of Christ. If you are a Christian outside of His Church then you are a Protestant and there is no need in denying the obvious.

(firefly) do you really want me to get into why your church is wrong?
you Catholics view the Bible as having equal authority with the Church and tradition. Christians view the Bible as the supreme authority for faith and practice.
why do we view the Bible this way?
2 Timothy 3:16–17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Scripture is not “just the beginning,” or “just the basics,” or the “foundation for a more complete church tradition.”
Scripture is perfectly and fully sufficient for everything in the Christian life. Scripture can teach us, rebuke us, correct us, train us, and equip us.

for a church tradition to be valid, it must be based on the clear teaching of Scripture, and must be in full agreement with Scripture.
should I go on?
let me know.

(Cristoiglesia) By the end of the first century the Church was formed around the bishop who represented the Church in apostolic succession. The great commission was well underway and had extended to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. In scriptures we see St. Paul in his epistles telling the Church to respect the Sacred Traditions handed to them coming from both written sources and oral ones. Even the written sources were delivered orally as transcripts were very rare and few people were literate. There was not widespread distribution of what we consider today to be inspired Scripture as decided at the African Synods by the Church in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. Throughout the first sixteen centuries of the Church there was never any question that the authority of truth rested in the Church as the “regula fidei” where all teaching was and is measured by Sacred Tradition not by the Bible alone, especially when interpreted outside of its source the Church. To orthodox Christians this would be considered ridiculous as well as arrogant considering the church never wrote the Bible to be a sole source of faith, morals and practice and one author even reminded those who would approach its use in such a way as to consider it the only source that it is incomplete as far as teaching and that Christ taught much more than what it contained. In fact, it warns that it contains only a small part of Christ’s teaching, but the faithful need not fear because the Church was sent the Holy Spirit that leads the Church to all truths.

Obviously, because there are those who have rejected orthodox Christianity some lack the fullness of truth that is contained in the Episcopal structure of Christ’s Church. They lack the fullness of worship by not having the corporeal Christ present in their worship. They lack the fullness of faith by not receiving His Body and Blood that the Bible and Sacred Tradition say is necessary for eternal life. The Church is led by men as the enduring Church and not by a book easily misinterpreted and its teaching turned into the traditions and doctrines of men by those through eisegesis use it to support their desires of the flesh very often exhibited by their hatred for the Church and hatred for the most sacred of gifts to humanity His Body and Blood of the Eucharist. These misinterpretations also cause them to have animosity for each other with the same source, the Bible being used to justify schisms which are usually not so much the result of theological disagreements so much as pridefulness and deceit which are no gifts of the Spirit but attributes of the flesh that inhibit our process of sanctification that leads to final salvation. Perhaps this is why Jesus said as a prophetic statement, that unless we eat of His Body and drink His blood we have no life in us. Perhaps this is why the Bible teaches that it is not enough to cry “Lord, Lord” as some of those who do will hear at their judgment that Christ never knew them and be thrown into the lake of fire.

Christ did not teach that we are to gather around a book of Scriptures to find the truth but that the truth is found in the Church that gathers around the bishop. God was not the author of division as has occurred with those who have abandoned the Church for their private interpretations of Scripture into tens of thousands of exponentially increasing schisms without end. God is a God of unity where He prayed His prayer before His arrest and crucifixion that we all be one. He is not a God that can only be found in the pages of a Book but who is found in His Church and where His corporeal presence is given to His Church as He promised so that we may endure to eternal life and His Church may endure until He comes again. It is His Church where the truth resides and it is the place where we find the ”bulwark and ground of the truth”, there is no other.

(Firefly) salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16).
When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).

(Cristoiglesia) Catholics believe that all of their works are produced by God. Once saved, always saved is a kind of lawless salvation where there is really no true sanctification but a covering up of a filthy sinful soul in the belief that it can sneak into heaven under the guise of holiness instead of actually having been sanctified and created anew. When one studies Scriptures, instead of using the Scriptures as a group of proof texts to support one’s fleshly desires, misunderstanding of God’s Word is less likely and false teaching is not promulgated. We should be more like the Bereans in not trusting those who are teaching us so that we will not fall for false teaching such as OSAS.

I know all the verses used to support lawless soteriology views. In view of contradictory Scripture how can a Calvinist support or justify their views. Allow me to illustrate what I mean with the following:

All through both Testaments of the Bible we are warned of the dangers of sin and that sin will separate us from eternity. The earliest verses making this point are as follows….

(Gen 2:16 DRB) And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:

(Gen 2:17 DRB) But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

If we examine verse 17 we see a striking similarity between hat Satan taught and what is taught by those teaching OSAS. They preach that we simply eat of the fruit of emotional ascension to faith for a moment in our lives and our consequent sins will not condemn us. Here is what the prophet Ezekiel says about a righteous man and see if it sounds like the righteous are guaranteed eternal security……

(Eze 3:20 DRB) Moreover if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at thy hand.

(Eze 18:24 DRB) But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.

The same teaching is repeated by St. Paul in His letter to the Romans lest one say that this prophecy only applies to the OC……

(Rom 8:13 DRB) For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

(Rom 6:16 DRB) Know you not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death or of obedience unto justice.

St. Paul’s teaching is full of warnings against lawlessness and false security regarding our salvation as well as the teaching of St. James…….

(Gal 5:19 DRB) Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,

(Gal 5:20 DRB) Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,

(Gal 5:21 DRB) Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

(Gal 6:8 DRB) For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.

(Gal 6:9 DRB) And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.

(Jam 1:14 DRB) But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.

(Jam 1:15 DRB) Then, when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death.

(Jam 1:16 DRB) Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren.

We know that both St. Paul and St. James were speaking to and about believers as St. James confirms in the following verses lest there be any doubt….

(Jam 5:19 DRB) My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him:

(Jam 5:20 DRB) He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Jesus taught of the necessity of keeping the Word and of the consequences of not keeping the Word once received…..

(Joh 8:51 DRB) Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

(Joh 11:25 DRB) Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:

(Joh 11:26 DRB) And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?

(Luk 8:13 DRB) Now they upon the rock are they who when they hear receive the word with joy: and these have no roots: for they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away.

Now, those teaching the false doctrine of OSAS will defend their views with saying that those who continue in lawlessness never were saved to begin with and it was a false eternal security that they received. The Bible clearly contradicts such a belief because it states that those who fell away were believers……..

(Act 17:11 DRB) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.

(Act 17:12 DRB) And many indeed of them believed: and of honourable women that were Gentiles and of men, not a few.

Even St. Paul recognized that the righteous were in danger of falling away when He said:

(1Co 9:27 DRB) But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

St. Paul clarified his view and teaching in the following ……

(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Even in the salvation chair passage of John 3:16 and also John 11:25-26 we find that in the Greek that a continuing tense is used in the word believe which clearly shows that we must “continue to believe” and not a one time belief for eternal security.

Here are a few more verses that emphasize our continuing belief and sanctification and warnings that the faithful can and often do fall away…..

(Rev 3:2 DRB) Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find not thy works full before my God.

(Rev 2:10 DRB) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death: and I will give thee the crown of life.

(Rev 2:11 DRB) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome shall not be hurt by the second death.

(1Jo 5:16 DRB) He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.

Obviously once saved always saved is an untenable theological position.

(Firefly) now don't quote,faith without works is dead because I know what that scripture actually means. faith is a result of faith,and if there is not a change or works then the faith of that person is questioned.
did they have real faith to begin with?

if they did then there would be works,but works do not save you,and they don't keep your salvation because salvation is something you can not lose.

(Cristoiglesia) No one believes that works save a person. The Catholic Church certainly does not teach this and in fact condemned such teaching in Council when confronted with the heresy of Pelagianism. The Catholic Church forbids the belief that one is saved by works alone.

Some say that justification is a legal act of God in which He declares the sinner to be worthy of heaven even though he continues to be a sinful creature. In this view of justification there is no internal renewal or real sanctification whether instant or through a lifelong process but simply an external application of the justice of Christ.

To Catholic Christians and many other Christians, justification is understood differently. We understand from Scriptures that justification is not the covering of sin but the eradication and the beginning of true sanctification and simultaneous renewal. The soul is transformed into goodness instead of being a sinful soul with sins covered by Christ’s blood. We see Scriptures saying that forgiveness results in a complete removal of sins. The only time the Bible mentions the covering of sin is in the context of one man’s sin being forgiven by another. One should note that we have no power to forgive another’s sin, therefore the context is that we do all we can and cover or overlook those sins against us. In relation to God and His removal of sin the Scriptures use quite different terminology such as “blot out”, “blotting out”, “clears away” and “takes away”.

Catholics see justification as a rebirth and supernatural life in a former sinner:

(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Tit 3:5 DRB) Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.

That creates an inner renewal of the soul:

(Eph 4:23 DRB) And be renewed in spirit of your mind:

Resulting in complete sanctification:

(1Co 6:11 DRB) And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.

Through this glorious process initiated by God’s grace the soul becomes beautiful, holy and worthy of heaven where nothing unclean is allowed. It is not an ugly sinful soul hidden under the blood of Jesus but instead one sanctified by Him and created anew for His glory.

(firefly) I told you before,I am not a "protestant" I didn't come out of the catholic church,I was never a part of the catholic church.
I am a saved Bible believing born again Christian.

(Cristoiglesia) I agree that you are far removed from Christ’s Church having come from numerous schismatic sects before becoming what you not profess or in the case of being a Protestant what you deny. The truth is that all Christianity came from the Catholic Church. Your rule of faith is a Catholic Book the Bible. Our book is your only authority and you protest against the true authority that Jesus left on earth His Church which is undeniably the Catholic Church. So in being in protest of Christ’s Church you are choosing to be outside of Christ’s will that we be one in His Church as He and the Father are one. That makes you a Protestant.

(firefly) sorry but I am not interested in your Catechism, I will stick with the word of God. you know, the Bible. the thing you catholics ignore.

(Cristoiglesia) The Catechism is the teaching of the Church in regards to Scripture. It tells exactly what the Church believes and teaches. The true reason you do not want to read it is because you do not want to find out that what you believe about the Church is false. The Catechism will challenge your hatred and bigotry when you find out that what you profess to know about the Churches teaching is a lie.
You say that we ignore the Bible yet we wrote the New Testament and canonized the entirety of the Bible. You would not have the Bible if it was not for the Catholic Church. It is ridiculous to claim that we ignore the Bible as we have been the protector of its teaching for 2000 years against heresies. We are truly the only Church that can legitimately claim to be a Bible believing Church as we are the only ones that teach the fullness of its truth.

(firefly) let me ask you something, do you really believe that Christ sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save us 4 ever?

(Cristoiglesia) Of course it is the teaching of Christ’s Church that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to redeem mankind. Salvation is always forever.

(firefly) do you really believe that you have to help him out by mantaining that salvation?

(Cristoiglesia) Living life in God's will is not a game and should not be approached ignorantly nor frivolously. It is being within His will that assures our salvation and not all the legalism one may attach to God's plan.

Many people seem to think that all they have to do is in a moment of emotion and/or reason ascent to recognition of Christ being their savior and their salvation to eternal life is assured. From that point forward it makes no difference that their life is changed and they will live differently. The only thing that has changed is that evil in their lives as displayed outwardly and lived inwardly no longer has an effect on their eternity as their one act of acceptance has made them immune to the actions of their sins at judgment and obligated God to accept them into His presence. Some will go so far as to say that one's sinfulness and evil has nothing to do with the value of their souls before God because even the most evil, sinful soul is covered rather than purified by Christ's atonement. It would appear that these people are saying that Christ's atonement is a method or sinister plan to allow sin in the presence of God draped in a covering of righteousness to conceal the evil within and that salvation is assured regardless of the state of their souls.

The question comes immediately to mind, how one can come to such conclusions considering the context of the body of Scriptures that contradict such a notion. I believe that it all comes down to one verse which is unique in all of Scripture that depicts Christ as a personal savior dependent on one’s inner conviction. All other Scriptures depict only salvation through the Church saying that He died for us, meaning the Church. St. Paul certainly taught this as he practiced seeking salvation through Christ's Church.

Here is the Scripture which through the eisegesis of some causes misunderstanding:

(Gal 2:20 DRB) And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me.

Some take this verse to mean that one need only repent and turn to God with the heart of a little child and their salvation is assured.

(Joh 3:3 DRB) Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Catholics see salvation quite differently than those who think that covering one’s sins is enough to enter the presence of God. We recognize that Christ has redeemed us on the cross and unlocked the gates of heaven and that redemption is not the same as salvation but instead a prelude to salvation. In order for us to receive salvation we must cooperate by being spiritually alive. Our soul cannot be in a natural state when we die to receive salvation and no covering of its sinfulness will be enough to hide what is beneath, a soul without the sanctifying grace cannot enter heaven. If, at death, the soul is sanctified then there is no doubt of heaven even if that soul needs to go to the purification of purgatory. Only souls that are indeed good and pleasing to God by being full of His sanctifying grace will merit heaven. It is the state of the soul at death that merits heaven and this fact emphasizes why we need God’s ongoing grace in our lives to persevere to the end.

(firefly) I'm not saying that we can sin and live like the devil because we are saved,like I said before,anyone who lives like that,I question whether or not they were sinsere.

(Cristoiglesia) In doing so you are judging them. It is not for anyone to say who are saved or not. We are not to even claim our own salvation but to work out our salvation with fear and trembling just like St. Paul said. We do not as Christians presume anyone’s salvation lest of all our own.

(firefly) what I am saying is that Jesus does not need to be crucified over and over again by you people. he payed the price once and for all, without any help from us. He is God after all.

(Cristoiglesia) We do not crucify Jesus at all that was done 2000 years ago on Calvary.

Catholics see the Scriptures written about the Eucharist as literal teaching by Jesus and have interpreted Jesus’ words as literal since before the NT Scriptures were written as recorded in Scripture. Catholics find no reason to interpret Jesus’ teaching to be anything but literal from a hermeneutical, historical or theological perspective.

Some Protestants, on the other hand, are very much like the proto-Protestants who were former disciples and left Jesus after His teaching in John 6, about the commandment to eat His Body and drink His Blood. They remain in the carnal sense and deny the miracle of the Eucharist. They believe that instead of being present at the one sacrifice of Christ, that what Jesus instituted is a symbolic ordinance instead.

So, what we are speaking of is two totally different practices. The first identical to what the apostles taught and put into practice which is the real presence and the second a modernist interpretation of a man Ulrich Zwingli which is a symbolic ordinance. The first is actually Christ on the Cross where the worshippers are at the foot of the cross; the second is just a remembering of what Christ did as recorded in the Bible. When a Catholic Christian remembers Christ’s sacrifice it is from being there, when a Protestant remembers Christ’s sacrifice it is recalling what is written in Scriptures about the event. Certainly, one should be able to understand the level of passion one would have after being at the foot of the cross compared to the level of one just remembering what is written in a book. So even though some do not take it lightly, even though they do not believe, it cannot be the same passion for an exercise or ordinance in supposed obedience, as the Protestant act can be described; to the Catholic practice of being present with the living corporeal Christ at the cross and eating His real body and Blood as He commanded.

It must be noted for understanding that for many of the Reformers that this approach by Zwingli was necessary to give some credibility to the new Protestant movement which denied the successive apostolic leadership of the Church established by Christ. These reformers knew full well that they had no true legitimacy and no authority from Christ. They also knew that without a legitimate episcopacy that they could not continue Holy Orders, the Sacraments nor do they have the authority to confect the Eucharist which authority can only be given by Christ through the Church. Therefore, they could not continue the Eucharist even if they desired without a valid priesthood.

So, I am not saying that I do not believe that Protestant communion service is not special or a sign of unity but it is to me a sign of unity for a false, heretical belief outside of historical, Traditional and orthodox Christianity and is a doctrine of men warned about in the Gospels.

(Mat 15:7 DRB) Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying:(Mat 15:8 DRB) This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.(Mat 15:9 DRB) And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

(Mar 7:5 DRB) And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?

(Mar 7:6 DRB) But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

(Mar 7:7 DRB) And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.

(Mar 7:8 DRB) For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.(Mar 7:9 DRB) And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

(Luk 6:46 DRB) And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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