01 December, 2009

Supposed apostasy of the Church discussed with "Cajundude1"

(Cajundude1) You call the LDS religion evil. Can you tell me how you come to this conclusion?

(Cristoiglesia) There are a host of reasons why I believe the Mormon faith is evil from a Christian perspective. Certainly the Mormon faith has a heterodox understanding of God’s nature by denying the Trinity which is the fundamental criteria for one calling oneself Christian. (See Nicene and Athanasian Creeds) On this same theme Mormon teaching is that there is innumerable gods and that God was once like us and that we will be a God as well if we just follow Mormon doctrine. We can populate our own world with our wives producing spirit children for all eternity and have others worship us as God. Of course, this belief is very similar to the lie of Satan in the Garden where He told Eve that if she ate of the fruit she would be like God appealing to the prideful nature of man. This is how many are seduced into Mormonism because Christianity does not promise that we will be worshipped but that we will for all eternity worship our Lord. So, using the same lie as Satan to seduce people into joining is a definite indication as to the evil nature of Mormonism. Mormonism is henotheism and not monotheism like Christianity. Certainly henotheism is not the teaching of Christ and the disciples.

(Cajundude1) I've been a member for 25 years and I have never seen any evil in it. Of course I agree with the fact that Joseph Smith and Brigham young were prophets and would not mislead us.

(Cristoiglesia) The evil I speak of is that it is a counterfeit church to the Church that Jesus founded. It is evil in this respect because such an invention must come from the father of lies and the great deceiver. Joseph Smith and Brigham young were prophets of Satan and not of God. They sold their soul to Satan for fame and fortune. Their teaching is likely to lead millions into the lake of fire. Putting trust in men is a dangerous path to follow with eternal consequences. The fact that they led people away from the Church that Jesus founded is proof in itself for their evil intentions.

(Cajandude1) I know that Christ established a Church when he was on Earth. It had the authrity of the Priesthood. About 200 years after Christ ascended this priesthood was lost, which ushered in the dark ages. The religion of the day killed Christ and the Apostles.

Yes, Jesus did found a Church before He was crucified. The Bible tells us that this Church was founded on a solid foundation of Jesus as the cornerstone, representing the high priest of the order of Melchizedek, and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones. Jesus contrasts this using the same construction vernacular when speaking of building a house on sand. “Rock or stone” as the foundation represents an enduring structure able to withstand the attacks of weather and storm. The building on “sand” represents a temporary foundation that the architect would build on for convenience of location rather than for the purpose of longevity and endurance. According to Christ’s promise to His faithful and indeed to humanity is that what He was establishing would indeed endure for all time representing His return at the Parousia. In the book of Acts we see the twelve building onto this foundation with disciples of their own who received the same indelible mark of the priesthood that had been given to the twelve. We call this today apostolic succession which still remains as testimony to Christ’s veracity. Mormons disagree with Jesus and claim that His Church was not on that firm foundation of rock or stone but was instead built of sand and was destroyed by the “gates of Hell” actually prevailing against it, just as the waves would erode the foundation of a house built on sand. Such a claim does one of two things……being charitable it shows Jesus as an incompetent in establishing the foundation of His Church or secondly it shows him as a liar and thus a pretender to being the Messiah prophesied. I can think of no greater accomplishment of Satan than to propagate such a lie. The Mormon teaching does indeed do this proving further its evil nature and origin.

Now, you say and I assume the Mormon Church claims that 200 years after Jesus founded His Church that the foundation of the Church was lost. Now I am considered as an expert in the history of the early Church and in patristics. The first 200 years of the Church are certainly within my area of expertise and I know of absolutely no indication that such a thing happened. These years were some of the most inspirational in all the history of the Church. We see the Church protecting the faith and triumphing against the various heresies that came about. The Bible (NT) itself was written during this time. The so-called “dark ages” started much later but the term “dark ages” is a misnomer as this was a time of great growth in theological scholarship and devotion to the faith. I have no idea what you could mean when you say that the religion of the day killed Christ and the apostles.

(Cajundude1)Then Popes took over starting crusades which killed more good people then bad. HIs Church did not live on because the true Priesthood was lost.

(Cristoiglesia) Sorry to inform you but this is nothing more than idle speculation without any evidence to support such a claim. There is no evidence that the priesthood was ever lost. The Crusades freed the Christians and Jews in the Holy Lands of Muslim dominance and oppression. Are you saying that the Muslim hoards should not have been opposed and confronted? That is nonsense; the Church had no choice but to fight this evil.

(Cajandude1) He reinstituted his Church and Priesthood through Joseph Smith in the early 1800s. This was the only time God and Christ appeared together to reestablish their plans.

(Cristoiglesia) So let me summarize what you believe. You believe that for 200 years the priesthood was truly established but was suspended or ceased to exist for another 1600+ years, since the priesthood represents and defines the Church. Seems to me that you do not believe Jesus’ promise of an enduring Church but instead a Church built on a foundation of sand. Was Jesus and incompetent or a liar in your opinion when promising an enduring Church? One has to suspend any semblance of credibility of Jesus to believe such a deception.

How did He know that they were God the Father and God the Son instead of angels of the dark like the ones that deceived Mohammad? If they could see God the Father we know that it was not He as no one can see Him and live.
The fact is there is no proof that any of this occurred and even more evidence of a collusion of several individuals to deceive others and gain fame and fortune.

(Cajundude1)From that we got the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, you got the “Book of Mormon” from Sydney Rigdon. The “D&C” and the “Pearl of Great Price” came from the writing of Joseph Smith.

(Cajundude1) We use the King James version of the Bible. All this makes complete sense and is in harmony. If you have studied all these books, you would see that there is a lot of substance to the LDS religion.

(Cristoiglesia) Well the King James English translation is not one of the better translations but acceptable if it contains the complete Christian Canon including the Deuterocanonicals. Otherwise it is only part of God’s written Word. By what authority do you use this bible and what do you use in other countries that are not English speaking?

I have studied these books and more of Mormon writing and find substance but no veracity or inspiration. Certainly the Mormon faith is built on that foundation of sand that you accused Christ’s Church of being built on. I do not see the harmony with Christian teaching but instead see much of Mormon teaching the antithesis of Christian teaching in Scriptures and in the Sacred Traditions. Mormonism is based more on reason and carnal understanding than on faith, obedience and devotion.

(Cajandude1) I am not on my way out. I intend to stay faithful until the end. We work with and respect other religions that spread the Gospel of Christ. This is a good thing. But you don 't have the full Gospel. It's your lost. Of course apologists will agree with you. It has been invigorating to have this conversation with you. In the end you will get what you deserve. God Bless.

(Cristoiglesia) God gave us free will to choose him our own path. You have chosen your own path and departed from the one faith delivered once for all. I respect your choice as one called by God I can only teach the truth I cannot compel someone to follow the truth. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Obviously you do not respect the Catholic Church as you say but instead, by your testimony, believe it to be a fallen Church which has indeed fallen into apostasy. Of course Jesus in His teaching and promises about His Church disagrees with your man-made sect. We have the fullness of truth while you teach a false gospel of Satan which says that if we follow your sect and reject Christ’s Church we can become Gods just like our Father in heaven. I do not need my pride to be fed in this way. Instead I will humble myself before my Lord and worship Him for all eternity blessed to be His child. Thank you for the opportunity to contend for the faith delivered once for all and for the inspiration and the opportunity to teach about the Mormon sect and how it is similar and contrasting to Christianity. Yes, in the end every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

1 comment:

  1. It deeply saddens me to see someone converting away from the Christian faith to Roman Catholicism. Did you not read revelations, if not please read Revelations 17! It warned you of the woman riding a beast on the seven hills.

    If you studied theology, you would know a woman represents a church, and a beast a nation. There is only one "woman riding a beast" on Earth. There is only one Church-Nation on Earth, and it just so happens to reside on the seven hills of Rome!

    Read Revelations 17 please. The seven hilled city of Rome is so clearly labeled as the seat of the Nation-Church that is the woman riding a beast.

    Keep in mind also, there are two definitions of blasphemy:
    #1: Claiming to be holy. (the pope's title is Holy Father, the title of God himself)
    #2: Claiming the power to forgive sins. (the Pope still claims the power to forgive sins, and still issues indulgences)

    Even a priest like yourself knows of confession, where a priest says "I absolve you of your sins".

    I tell you verily, only Jesus the sole intercessor, can forgive sins. The bible has so clearly laid out that it is blasphemy to pray to anyone except God or Jesus (because Jesus IS God in the flesh).

    The devil himself could not have made a more obstructive church, one which tells believers it is WRONG to pray directly to God, when that is the SOLE reason Jesus died for us, so we could pray DIRECTLY to him (Jesus is God) for forgiveness! God wants a relationship with you and all the flock!