(Dannyboy) I know I am saved.
(Cristoiglesia) I understand that you have been deceived by Calvinist teaching into thinking that you have already been saved but that will not occur until your death and judgment according to biblical teaching. Only our sovereign God declares one saved and that is done at judgment. We cannot proclaim ourselves or others saved without prideful presumption. You are looking for cheap grace but that grace was earned for us by our Lord at Calvary and carried a heavy price of suffering to atone for our sins and open the door to heaven for us through our repentance.
(Dannyboy) And, I know that if you think you are saved because you do enough works, and teach others that they can lose their salvation by works (and you clearly do).
(Cristoiglesia) Why would you make such a presumption except that you were influenced by false teachers and believed their lies about Christ’s Church? Works salvation or Pelagianism is a heresy condemned by the Church.
"If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."
-Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Canon I
As you can see, what you accuse Catholics of is not true and that the Church teaches the exact opposite of what you have been told and believe.
(Dannyboy)If salvation can be lost by works, then it can be gained by works. You are teaching salvation isn't something we are promised or is a gift (though you will probably say you do). You're teaching that we won't really know until we get to heaven, depending on the "condition of our soul."
(Cristoiglesia) Well, as I have just pointed out to you, you are coming to erroneous conclusions by using a false premise. The Church teaches that we do not earn or lose salvation by works. Salvation is a promise, not a current one but instead as future promise based on our continuation of faith until final salvation at judgment. If we die in God’s grace with a sanctified soul we merit heaven, If we do not we merit hell. This is the teaching of our Lord.
(Dannyboy) How do you know the condition of your soul? I know the condition of mine because Christ has died for my sins. Perhaps He hasn't died for yours, and you don't believe He has died for the sins of those who you tell must have a "right soul condition" upon death in order to be saved, at that time. But, I know I am saved, and it is well with my soul.
(Cristoiglesia) Christ died so that everyone’s sins may be forgiven but the Bible teaches that there can be a false assurance of salvation. Here is what Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
St. Paul questioned his own salvation on several occasions when he spoke of his walk in faith as a race where one who is successful wins heaven. Then St. Paul says the following:
1 Corinthians 9:27 (King James Version)
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Now, let us look at what St. Paul taught to those who were already saved or had already come to initial salvation:
2 Corinthians 5:10 (King James Version)
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Romans 2:6 (King James Version)
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 11:22 (King James Version)
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
This is the teaching of the inspired Word of God and not the teaching of John Calvin that you place above God’s Word. We are not judged only by the one act of coming to faith and accepting Jesus as our personal savior but instead how we respond to His grace through our life. There is no doubt that we are saved by faith and this has been the constant teaching of the Church through its entire history. Where the Protestants depart from orthodoxy and the Bible is when they claim that we are saved by faith alone. Such an assumption is clearly forbidden in Scriptures.
(Dannyboy) I *am* born again. Not going to be... not hope to be... I *am* born again. And, I *am* saved. If you aren't... then you aren't.
(Cristoiglesia) No, you are not an exception to Scriptures. There are no exceptions and everyone is saved in the same plan of salvation put into action by Christ’s salvific work on the cross.
In the Bible it tells us that Nicodemus asked Jesus what must be done to be saved. Jesus said the following:
John 3:5 (King James Version)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Now, if you are a convicted follower of Calvin you would say that the water is of no benefit which is another departure from orthodoxy as the orthodox Christian view is that both the water and the Holy Spirit are joined As one in the Sacrament of Baptism established by our Lord. It is not just the conviction from the Holy Spirit that is necessary but the water as well. You would say that the water is unnecessary but Jesus did not teach that the Holy Spirit alone is what is necessary for salvation but that the two are joined as one. His teaching does not say that an intellectual assent is all that is necessary but that the water is equally necessary.
Now, as a true Calvinist you probably believe that there is no act that can assist your salvation and that your acceptance of Christ is all that is needed. Let us look at St. Paul’s letter to the Romans:
Romans 5:2 (King James Version)
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Now, if Calvin was right and that by our one assent to faith we are assured of salvation then why is St. Paul saying that we “rejoice in hope” for glory if nothing can separate us from heaven.
St. Paul explains his meaning here:
Romans 8:24 (King James Version)
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
The reason we have hope is because even though we are in the Spirit we know that there is a chance that we may lose it through mortal sin.
So, the Catholic would respond to a Calvinist asking if they are saved by answering, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ and as St. Paul taught I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, lacking false assurance as the Church has taught from the beginning of the Church at Pentecost.
(Dannyboy) That's not presumption. You said you aren't saved. You can't know until you find out what the condition of your soul is. I'm sorry you don't know the condition of your soul, as I know the condition of my soul. The condition of my soul is covered by the blood of Christ. He is in me. Has been since the day I was saved. I'm sorry this is not the case for you, as you have told me.
(Cristoiglesia) I said my salvation is not complete until death and judgment and that it is a process and not a one time event. I am being sanctified by His grace and I cooperate with that grace by confession of my sins and reconciling back into the familial relationship with Him when I fail by the seduction of temptation.
To Catholic Christians and many other Christians, justification is understood differently. We understand from Scriptures that justification is not the covering of sin but the eradication and the beginning of true sanctification and simultaneous renewal. The soul is transformed into goodness instead of being a sinful soul with sins covered by Christ’s blood. We see Scriptures saying that forgiveness results in a complete removal of sins. The only time the Bible mentions the covering of sin is in the context of one man’s sin being forgiven by another. One should note that we have no power to forgive another’s sin, therefore the context is that we do all we can and cover or overlook those sins against us. In relation to God and His removal of sin the Scriptures use quite different terminology such as “blot out”, “blotting out”, “clears away” and “takes away”.
Catholics see justification as a rebirth and supernatural life in a former sinner:
(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Tit 3:5 DRB) Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.
That creates an inner renewal of the soul:
(Eph 4:23 DRB) And be renewed in spirit of your mind:
Resulting in complete sanctification:
(1Co 6:11 DRB) And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
Through this glorious process initiated by God’s grace the soul becomes beautiful, holy and worthy of heaven where nothing unclean is allowed. It is not an ugly sinful soul hidden under the blood of Jesus but instead one sanctified by Him and created anew for His glory.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
30 April, 2010
29 April, 2010
A desperate and unjustified attack on Christ's Church
(SPLTexas) You are testifying to the fact that your faith is unfounded:
(Cristoiglesia) Well, let’s see if you are right.
(SPLTexas) You said not that you believe in the words of God and Jesus in the bible but man made doctrines and rituals of men disguised as religion.
(Cristoiglesia) No, I never said that. There are no man-made doctrines in the Catholic Church and I am a Catholic. I am faithful to the teaching of Jesus, the disciples and the teaching authority of Christ’s Church. It is rather odd that you would make such an accusation since you are in a man-made sect teaching man-made doctrines and are in protest of the only Church that Jesus and the disciples founded which is the Church that was given the promises by Jesus to be the enduring Church, free from apostasy and recorded in the Bible to be the “pillar and foundation of the truth.
(SPLTexas) Where in the Bible do you find rosaries,
(Cristoiglesia) Where in the Bible do you find it stating that it is the regula fidei? What do you have against prayer? Show me in the Bible where it says not to pray.
The hermeneutic principal I see used by non Catholics time and time again is the proof text method. In almost all cases that is a methodology that results in eisegesis and not exegesis.
The proof text model employed in interpretation ignores context and results in simply an anthology of verses that support unorthodox doctrines like soul sleep and to a lesser extent Sola Scriptura. Ignored is the fact that without their context they have no meaning. In other words, one takes a theme to support and search for verses with certain key words that epigrammatically coincide with the doctrine and not for their contextual contribution to understanding. Consequently, as we see in this use of Scriptures, there is an allegorization as an adjustment to the plain meaning within context creating a usage of the text foreign to its intended meaning. This almost always results in eisegesis.
Systematic theology deals with the teaching of the Bible as a whole body of work instead of individual books or individual verses. This is why one should consider not just those verses which support one’s views but how one deals with those that are contradictory to one’s teaching or understanding. Can the doctrine one believes pass the test or scrutiny of a systematic study of the doctrine?
There seems to be an evolution of Catholic hermeneutics. It started with the Alexandrian school and is apparent in the writings of St. Titus Flavius Clement. He believed that the Scriptures hid the sense, and that the holy mysteries and prophesies were hidden in parables. Origen was a disciple of St. Clement and coined the threefold sense of Scripture: corporeal, psychical and the spiritual in his work “On First Principles”. This was the first written work on hermeneutics.
Around the end of the third century there was the Antiochian school founded by Lucian of Samosata or Diodorus. It produced two of the greatest theologians of the Church, Theodore of Mopsuestia and John Chrysostom. This school expands the teaching of the Alexandrian school to include “theoria” which comes from a Greek word meaning “to see”. This method of interpretation contended that the spiritual sense is inseparable from the literal sense. There was a concern in this school of being overly literalistic or going too far in allegory as to lose the plain meaning of the Scripture. To the Antiochians Scripture had only one meaning which possessed the attributes of literal, spiritual, historical and typological. They believed that the aim of exegesis involved spiritual as well as doctrinal enlightenment in conjunction with historical and philological facts.
The third school in the patristic period was the Western School which had elements of the two previous schools. This school included St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose and St. Hilary. Most of what we know of this school is contained in St. Augustine’s work ”De Doctrina Christiana”. St. Augustine introduced the idea of “regula fidei” or the rule of faith which are the collection of doctrines of the Church. The proper use of the regula fidei presupposes that the meaning of Scripture has already been decided sufficiently in order to recognize that the passage does belong to the doctrine being used as a “rule of faith’ to measure it. Otherwise St. Augustine said that there was an enormous chance of eisegesis. Eventually in the Western school there were four terms that won out in their hermeneutical approach which were: literal, allegorical, tropological, and analogical. This was illustrated in John Cassian’s “Conferences:
Jerusalem literally means city of the Jews, allegorically Jerusalem means Church, tropologically Jerusalem is the soul, and anagogically Jerusalem is our heavenly home. He emphasized that the literal sense is always the precedent in interpretation.
Personally, I do not have a problem with the grammatico-historical method of exegesis but I use what is called the Syntactical-Theological method by Walter Kaiser, Jr., which combines systematic theology with biblical exegesis. When Walter Kaiser coined the name of this methodology he said, “ Because the Bible purports to be the Word from God the task of locating meaning is not finished until one apprehends the purpose, scope, or reason (indeed, the theology) for which the text was written.”
(SPLTexas) worshipping mary,
(Cristoiglesia) You certainly won’t find the worship of anyone or anything but God in the Catholic Church. Such is forbidden in the Scriptures and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
(SPLTexas) praying to dead people,
(Cristoiglesia) If you will check Scriptures you will find that necromancy is forbidden in the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says,
All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead, or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums ["channelers"] all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. (CCC 2116)
(SPLTexas) scapula,
(Cristoiglesia) I think you mean scapular. This can refer to two different things. It is usually part of the habit of monastic orders and is symbolic of an apron. It can also be a devotional Sacramental that reminds the wearer to pray constantly.
(SPLTexas) legion of mary,
(Cristoiglesia) I do not have a lot of knowledge of this organization but what I know is that it is a organization of laity, traditionally mostly women who have ministries for mostly poor women and children. They are particularly active with the prostitutes in the Philippines in getting them out of the life of prostitution by teaching them skills and getting them education.
(SPLTexas) prarying to statues,
(Cristoiglesia) You will not find such a practice in the Catholic Church as the Church forbids idolatry in any form:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
(SPLTexas) depending on perverted men for forgiveness.
(Cristoiglesia) This is a very strange accusation coming from a professed Christian. We depend on Jesus only for forgiveness and He is certainly not perverted. Jesus gave the authority and the responsibility to the Church to forgive the sins of man. Jesus told the Church that what sins we forgive are forgiven in heaven and what sins we retain are retained in heaven. He expected the Church to fulfill that authority and this is the only method of forgiveness contained in Scriptures. Protestants reject this teaching by Jesus saying that they prefer to ask Jesus directly for forgiveness and by doing so they are abdicating being obedient to Christ’s teaching. I think that most do this out of pride by not wanting others to know their sin but Jesus knowing the carnal reluctance to admit our sin uses this as a sign of obedience and devotion in serving God. Certainly it is an embarrassment to expose our soul to others but it also makes it less likely that we will commit that sin again. The priest, as in the other Sacraments, is acting in “persona Christi”, which means that he is the hands and mouth of God when He grants absolution. If the confession is not from a contrite heart there is no forgiveness.
(SPLTexas) If you substitute the blood of Jesus for forgiveness with a man made ritual, and if you substitute the words in the Bible that God and Jesus spoke with man made doctrines, rituals and talismans, then how can you enter the kingdom of God.
(Cristoiglesia) You need to explain what you mean here by a man-made ritual. Are you saying that practices established by Jesus are man-made? If you are then you are denying His divinity. Think about it, would Jesus have given the authority to forgive sins to the priests if he did not expect this authority to be used, especially in the absence of any other teaching of a different method.
We can discuss man-made doctrines when you find them in the Catholic Church with some specificity. So far you have been unable to identify one but instead you are creating straw men and calling them Catholic doctrine. I can not comment on rituals unless you explain what you are calling a ritual and why you are opposed to them.
I assume that the talismans you speak of are the sacramental’s that are used by some to remind them to pray to God. All Catholics know that any protection they offer comes not from the Sacramental but from their prayers. We believe as Catholics that God grants our prayers. Why do you think that devotion and obedience to God through prayer prevents one from entering the kingdom of God?
(SPLTexas) You have made the sacrifice that Jesus made of no effect through holding on to man made lies that do not bring people to repentance and changed lives by the Blood of the Lamb and the Power of the Holy Spirit.
(Cristoiglesia) Before you can make such a claim you must identify these supposed lies. I cannot comment on vacuous accusations or ambiguous theological opinions. But, I will say that I know of no lies taught by Christ’s Church as I searched for them for 30 years before becoming Catholic. People have been coming to repentance in the Catholic Church for 2000 years and long before the Protestant rebellion when the protesters of the Church turned Secular Humanists decided they could no longer endure the sound doctrine in Christ’s Church and founded their own counterfeit sects that continue to show their bad fruit with over 30,000 different divisions in the Corpus Christi each claiming their own truth and heresy. But, at the same time the Church that Christ founded, the Catholic Church, remains true to the commission of Christ and is the recipient of His promises.
(SPLTexas) If you die in your sins, you will go to hell where the worms do not die and the fire is never quenched. Do not gamble with eternity by holding on to man made teachings and of devils mean to keep people from their God and Savior, Jesus doctrines.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes sin separates us from the familial relationship with Christ and also separates us from our eternal promise. So far you have been unable to identify any man-made teaching in the Catholic Church unless you are calling the teaching of Jesus as man-made. When you can identify such a teaching you can then make such a claim.
Everyone who dies without a sanctified soul can expect an eternity in hell. Perhaps it is you who should take your own advice as you are in protest of the only Church that Jesus founded. You admittedly suggest that you cannot endure the sound doctrine contained in Christ’s Church and truly are contending that your man-made sect is superior and with more veracity than the Church founded by our Lord. It sounds as if by your own testimony that you should not be a gambler with your own eternity. You are clearly outside of God’s will because Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest and crucifixion that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one.
(SPLTexas) You are like Saul before He met Jesus.
(Cristoiglesia) And you are like the unbelievers or proto-Protestants who were former disciples that walked away from Jesus after His colloquy at Capernaum. They rejected His teaching just like you do because of their own pride and lack of faith and obedience. I am not like Saul at all but instead I am faithful to Jesus like Paul in Christ’s Church. I was like Saul when I was a Protestant and acted just like you in persecuting Christ’s Church. May our Lord forgive me.
(SPLTexas) Talk with Jesus and ask Him to forgive you and fill you with His Holy Spirit to teach you truth from His Spirit and Words, not from men.
(Cristoiglesia) I did and He brought me to His Church kicking and screaming that I did not want to be Catholic.
(SPLTexas) Stop quoting men - quote the Bible - KJV or earliest. The cathecism is not the Bible - I am familiar with it, and you are quotiing the blind following the blind.
(Cristoiglesia) Again it is you that reject the Church founded by Jesus for the doctrines of men. I do quote the Bible but the difference between you and I is that I understand it through the teaching authority that Jesus left on earth. You must come to understand that the Bible is written by Christ’s Church and is about Christ’s Church. The Church existed for 400 years and grew under oral teaching through apostolic succession. Why would you think that the Catechism is the Bible? Catholics do not.
(SPLTexas) Forget the pharisetical teaching and let Jesus write His laws in heart!
(Cristoiglesia) Do you even know what that means? Perhaps this will help you understand.
(Deu 30:11) This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
(Deu 30:12) Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
(Deu 30:13) Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
(Deu 30:14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
This is the teaching of Moses where Moses tells the people the importance of the law being upon their hearts and how it is essential for God’s plan for humanity. We rarely see reference to these verses because they speak most profoundly against Calvinist predestination that says only some are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to hell. If the law is written on everyone’s heart by God, then for what purpose, except to provide a pathway to eternity in Christ. I heard a preacher in a small Pentecostal Church in the mountains of Kentucky say that the law on our hearts was like the Rosetta stone allowing us to understand the things of God, that the law contains the very concept of faith and this grace and this Godliness coexists with our inherent sinfulness until we are washed by the blood of the Lamb with our surrender and become pure of heart within God’s law and consequently within His will. We can not be within God’s will without obedience to this imputed law that along with inherited sin intuitively shows us the need for a Savior, Christ Jesus. This is why we have no excuse for our lack of surrender to God because He is not only evident in His creation but He is a part of our very being upon our creation.
How could one understand God’s demands upon us without this law? How can we understand God’s will for us to live within righteousness and justice if not for this law that abides always in our conscience? We often think of God’s law as something without us but in fact it is eternal within our being that calls to intuition the will of God. This is essential for without the law we can not know God.
Now the law on our hearts should not be confused with those external laws of men. The law written on our hearts is the law that makes us understand righteousness, justice, love and reconciliation. The law in our hearts is not the external law that can result in legalism where the letter of the law is followed at the expense of the spirit of the law. There is no other means by which we know His voice when He speaks to our spirit.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
(Rom 10:6) But the justice which is of faith, speaketh thus: Say not in thy heart: Who shall ascend into heaven? That is to bring Christ down;
(Rom 10:7) Or who shall descend into the deep? That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(Rom 10:8) But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:9) For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) Well, let’s see if you are right.
(SPLTexas) You said not that you believe in the words of God and Jesus in the bible but man made doctrines and rituals of men disguised as religion.
(Cristoiglesia) No, I never said that. There are no man-made doctrines in the Catholic Church and I am a Catholic. I am faithful to the teaching of Jesus, the disciples and the teaching authority of Christ’s Church. It is rather odd that you would make such an accusation since you are in a man-made sect teaching man-made doctrines and are in protest of the only Church that Jesus and the disciples founded which is the Church that was given the promises by Jesus to be the enduring Church, free from apostasy and recorded in the Bible to be the “pillar and foundation of the truth.
(SPLTexas) Where in the Bible do you find rosaries,
(Cristoiglesia) Where in the Bible do you find it stating that it is the regula fidei? What do you have against prayer? Show me in the Bible where it says not to pray.
The hermeneutic principal I see used by non Catholics time and time again is the proof text method. In almost all cases that is a methodology that results in eisegesis and not exegesis.
The proof text model employed in interpretation ignores context and results in simply an anthology of verses that support unorthodox doctrines like soul sleep and to a lesser extent Sola Scriptura. Ignored is the fact that without their context they have no meaning. In other words, one takes a theme to support and search for verses with certain key words that epigrammatically coincide with the doctrine and not for their contextual contribution to understanding. Consequently, as we see in this use of Scriptures, there is an allegorization as an adjustment to the plain meaning within context creating a usage of the text foreign to its intended meaning. This almost always results in eisegesis.
Systematic theology deals with the teaching of the Bible as a whole body of work instead of individual books or individual verses. This is why one should consider not just those verses which support one’s views but how one deals with those that are contradictory to one’s teaching or understanding. Can the doctrine one believes pass the test or scrutiny of a systematic study of the doctrine?
There seems to be an evolution of Catholic hermeneutics. It started with the Alexandrian school and is apparent in the writings of St. Titus Flavius Clement. He believed that the Scriptures hid the sense, and that the holy mysteries and prophesies were hidden in parables. Origen was a disciple of St. Clement and coined the threefold sense of Scripture: corporeal, psychical and the spiritual in his work “On First Principles”. This was the first written work on hermeneutics.
Around the end of the third century there was the Antiochian school founded by Lucian of Samosata or Diodorus. It produced two of the greatest theologians of the Church, Theodore of Mopsuestia and John Chrysostom. This school expands the teaching of the Alexandrian school to include “theoria” which comes from a Greek word meaning “to see”. This method of interpretation contended that the spiritual sense is inseparable from the literal sense. There was a concern in this school of being overly literalistic or going too far in allegory as to lose the plain meaning of the Scripture. To the Antiochians Scripture had only one meaning which possessed the attributes of literal, spiritual, historical and typological. They believed that the aim of exegesis involved spiritual as well as doctrinal enlightenment in conjunction with historical and philological facts.
The third school in the patristic period was the Western School which had elements of the two previous schools. This school included St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose and St. Hilary. Most of what we know of this school is contained in St. Augustine’s work ”De Doctrina Christiana”. St. Augustine introduced the idea of “regula fidei” or the rule of faith which are the collection of doctrines of the Church. The proper use of the regula fidei presupposes that the meaning of Scripture has already been decided sufficiently in order to recognize that the passage does belong to the doctrine being used as a “rule of faith’ to measure it. Otherwise St. Augustine said that there was an enormous chance of eisegesis. Eventually in the Western school there were four terms that won out in their hermeneutical approach which were: literal, allegorical, tropological, and analogical. This was illustrated in John Cassian’s “Conferences:
Jerusalem literally means city of the Jews, allegorically Jerusalem means Church, tropologically Jerusalem is the soul, and anagogically Jerusalem is our heavenly home. He emphasized that the literal sense is always the precedent in interpretation.
Personally, I do not have a problem with the grammatico-historical method of exegesis but I use what is called the Syntactical-Theological method by Walter Kaiser, Jr., which combines systematic theology with biblical exegesis. When Walter Kaiser coined the name of this methodology he said, “ Because the Bible purports to be the Word from God the task of locating meaning is not finished until one apprehends the purpose, scope, or reason (indeed, the theology) for which the text was written.”
(SPLTexas) worshipping mary,
(Cristoiglesia) You certainly won’t find the worship of anyone or anything but God in the Catholic Church. Such is forbidden in the Scriptures and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
(SPLTexas) praying to dead people,
(Cristoiglesia) If you will check Scriptures you will find that necromancy is forbidden in the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says,
All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead, or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums ["channelers"] all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. (CCC 2116)
(SPLTexas) scapula,
(Cristoiglesia) I think you mean scapular. This can refer to two different things. It is usually part of the habit of monastic orders and is symbolic of an apron. It can also be a devotional Sacramental that reminds the wearer to pray constantly.
(SPLTexas) legion of mary,
(Cristoiglesia) I do not have a lot of knowledge of this organization but what I know is that it is a organization of laity, traditionally mostly women who have ministries for mostly poor women and children. They are particularly active with the prostitutes in the Philippines in getting them out of the life of prostitution by teaching them skills and getting them education.
(SPLTexas) prarying to statues,
(Cristoiglesia) You will not find such a practice in the Catholic Church as the Church forbids idolatry in any form:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
(SPLTexas) depending on perverted men for forgiveness.
(Cristoiglesia) This is a very strange accusation coming from a professed Christian. We depend on Jesus only for forgiveness and He is certainly not perverted. Jesus gave the authority and the responsibility to the Church to forgive the sins of man. Jesus told the Church that what sins we forgive are forgiven in heaven and what sins we retain are retained in heaven. He expected the Church to fulfill that authority and this is the only method of forgiveness contained in Scriptures. Protestants reject this teaching by Jesus saying that they prefer to ask Jesus directly for forgiveness and by doing so they are abdicating being obedient to Christ’s teaching. I think that most do this out of pride by not wanting others to know their sin but Jesus knowing the carnal reluctance to admit our sin uses this as a sign of obedience and devotion in serving God. Certainly it is an embarrassment to expose our soul to others but it also makes it less likely that we will commit that sin again. The priest, as in the other Sacraments, is acting in “persona Christi”, which means that he is the hands and mouth of God when He grants absolution. If the confession is not from a contrite heart there is no forgiveness.
(SPLTexas) If you substitute the blood of Jesus for forgiveness with a man made ritual, and if you substitute the words in the Bible that God and Jesus spoke with man made doctrines, rituals and talismans, then how can you enter the kingdom of God.
(Cristoiglesia) You need to explain what you mean here by a man-made ritual. Are you saying that practices established by Jesus are man-made? If you are then you are denying His divinity. Think about it, would Jesus have given the authority to forgive sins to the priests if he did not expect this authority to be used, especially in the absence of any other teaching of a different method.
We can discuss man-made doctrines when you find them in the Catholic Church with some specificity. So far you have been unable to identify one but instead you are creating straw men and calling them Catholic doctrine. I can not comment on rituals unless you explain what you are calling a ritual and why you are opposed to them.
I assume that the talismans you speak of are the sacramental’s that are used by some to remind them to pray to God. All Catholics know that any protection they offer comes not from the Sacramental but from their prayers. We believe as Catholics that God grants our prayers. Why do you think that devotion and obedience to God through prayer prevents one from entering the kingdom of God?
(SPLTexas) You have made the sacrifice that Jesus made of no effect through holding on to man made lies that do not bring people to repentance and changed lives by the Blood of the Lamb and the Power of the Holy Spirit.
(Cristoiglesia) Before you can make such a claim you must identify these supposed lies. I cannot comment on vacuous accusations or ambiguous theological opinions. But, I will say that I know of no lies taught by Christ’s Church as I searched for them for 30 years before becoming Catholic. People have been coming to repentance in the Catholic Church for 2000 years and long before the Protestant rebellion when the protesters of the Church turned Secular Humanists decided they could no longer endure the sound doctrine in Christ’s Church and founded their own counterfeit sects that continue to show their bad fruit with over 30,000 different divisions in the Corpus Christi each claiming their own truth and heresy. But, at the same time the Church that Christ founded, the Catholic Church, remains true to the commission of Christ and is the recipient of His promises.
(SPLTexas) If you die in your sins, you will go to hell where the worms do not die and the fire is never quenched. Do not gamble with eternity by holding on to man made teachings and of devils mean to keep people from their God and Savior, Jesus doctrines.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes sin separates us from the familial relationship with Christ and also separates us from our eternal promise. So far you have been unable to identify any man-made teaching in the Catholic Church unless you are calling the teaching of Jesus as man-made. When you can identify such a teaching you can then make such a claim.
Everyone who dies without a sanctified soul can expect an eternity in hell. Perhaps it is you who should take your own advice as you are in protest of the only Church that Jesus founded. You admittedly suggest that you cannot endure the sound doctrine contained in Christ’s Church and truly are contending that your man-made sect is superior and with more veracity than the Church founded by our Lord. It sounds as if by your own testimony that you should not be a gambler with your own eternity. You are clearly outside of God’s will because Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest and crucifixion that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one.
(SPLTexas) You are like Saul before He met Jesus.
(Cristoiglesia) And you are like the unbelievers or proto-Protestants who were former disciples that walked away from Jesus after His colloquy at Capernaum. They rejected His teaching just like you do because of their own pride and lack of faith and obedience. I am not like Saul at all but instead I am faithful to Jesus like Paul in Christ’s Church. I was like Saul when I was a Protestant and acted just like you in persecuting Christ’s Church. May our Lord forgive me.
(SPLTexas) Talk with Jesus and ask Him to forgive you and fill you with His Holy Spirit to teach you truth from His Spirit and Words, not from men.
(Cristoiglesia) I did and He brought me to His Church kicking and screaming that I did not want to be Catholic.
(SPLTexas) Stop quoting men - quote the Bible - KJV or earliest. The cathecism is not the Bible - I am familiar with it, and you are quotiing the blind following the blind.
(Cristoiglesia) Again it is you that reject the Church founded by Jesus for the doctrines of men. I do quote the Bible but the difference between you and I is that I understand it through the teaching authority that Jesus left on earth. You must come to understand that the Bible is written by Christ’s Church and is about Christ’s Church. The Church existed for 400 years and grew under oral teaching through apostolic succession. Why would you think that the Catechism is the Bible? Catholics do not.
(SPLTexas) Forget the pharisetical teaching and let Jesus write His laws in heart!
(Cristoiglesia) Do you even know what that means? Perhaps this will help you understand.
(Deu 30:11) This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
(Deu 30:12) Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
(Deu 30:13) Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
(Deu 30:14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
This is the teaching of Moses where Moses tells the people the importance of the law being upon their hearts and how it is essential for God’s plan for humanity. We rarely see reference to these verses because they speak most profoundly against Calvinist predestination that says only some are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to hell. If the law is written on everyone’s heart by God, then for what purpose, except to provide a pathway to eternity in Christ. I heard a preacher in a small Pentecostal Church in the mountains of Kentucky say that the law on our hearts was like the Rosetta stone allowing us to understand the things of God, that the law contains the very concept of faith and this grace and this Godliness coexists with our inherent sinfulness until we are washed by the blood of the Lamb with our surrender and become pure of heart within God’s law and consequently within His will. We can not be within God’s will without obedience to this imputed law that along with inherited sin intuitively shows us the need for a Savior, Christ Jesus. This is why we have no excuse for our lack of surrender to God because He is not only evident in His creation but He is a part of our very being upon our creation.
How could one understand God’s demands upon us without this law? How can we understand God’s will for us to live within righteousness and justice if not for this law that abides always in our conscience? We often think of God’s law as something without us but in fact it is eternal within our being that calls to intuition the will of God. This is essential for without the law we can not know God.
Now the law on our hearts should not be confused with those external laws of men. The law written on our hearts is the law that makes us understand righteousness, justice, love and reconciliation. The law in our hearts is not the external law that can result in legalism where the letter of the law is followed at the expense of the spirit of the law. There is no other means by which we know His voice when He speaks to our spirit.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
(Rom 10:6) But the justice which is of faith, speaketh thus: Say not in thy heart: Who shall ascend into heaven? That is to bring Christ down;
(Rom 10:7) Or who shall descend into the deep? That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(Rom 10:8) But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:9) For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Relationship between sin and salvation
(Dannyboy) Where do you base what a "mortal sin" is, in God's Word?
(Cristoiglesia) The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
V. THE PROLIFERATION OF SIN
1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.
1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called "capital" because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.
1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry to heaven": the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers.
1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
IN BRIEF
1870 "God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all" (Rom 11:32
).
1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22: PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man's nature and injures human solidarity.
1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.
1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.
1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.
1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.
________________________________________
113 Cf. Lk 15.
114 Mt 1:21.
115 Mt 26:28.
116 St. Augustine, Sermo 169, 11, 13: PL 38, 923.
117 1 Jn 8-9.
118 Rom 5:20.
119 Rom 5:21.
120 John Paul II, DeV 31 # 2.
121 St. Augustine, Contra Faustum 22: PL 42, 418; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 71, 6.
122 Ps 51:4.
123 Gen 3:5.
124 St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 14, 28: PL 41, 436.
125 Cf. Phil 2:6-9.
126 Cf. Jn 14:30.
127 Gal 5:19-21; CE Rom 1:28-32; 1 Cor 9-10; EPh 5:3-5; Col 3:5-8; 1 Tim 9-10; 2 Tim 2-5.
128 Mt 15:19-20.
129 Cf. 1 Jn 16-17.
130 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 88, 2, corp. art.
131 RP 17 # 12.
132 Mk 10:19.
133 Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.
134 John Paul II, RP 17 # 9.
135 St. Augustine, In ep. Jo. 1, 6: PL 35, 1982.
136 Mt 12:31; cf. Mk 3:29; Lk 12:10.
137 Cf. John Paul II, DeV 46.
138 Cf. St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, 31, 45: PL 76, 621A.
139 Cf. Gen 4:10.
140 Cf. Gen 18:20; 19:13.
141 Cf. Ex 3:7-10.
142 Cf. Ex 20:20-22.
143 Cf. Deut 24:14-15; Jas 5:4.
144 John Paul II, RP 16.
(Dannyboy) Or, once we receive Christ, that we even in order to attain forgiveness from future sins?
(Cristoiglesia) Some say that justification is a legal act of God in which He declares the sinner to be worthy of heaven even though he continues to be a sinful creature. In this view of justification there is no internal renewal or real sanctification whether instant or through a lifelong process but simply an external application of the justice of Christ.
To Catholic Christians and many other Christians, justification is understood differently. We understand from Scriptures that justification is not the covering of sin but the eradication and the beginning of true sanctification and simultaneous renewal. The soul is transformed into goodness instead of being a sinful soul with sins covered by Christ’s blood. We see Scriptures saying that forgiveness results in a complete removal of sins. The only time the Bible mentions the covering of sin is in the context of one man’s sin being forgiven by another. One should note that we have no power to forgive another’s sin, therefore the context is that we do all we can and cover or overlook those sins against us. In relation to God and His removal of sin the Scriptures use quite different terminology such as “blot out”, “blotting out”, “clears away” and “takes away”.
Catholics see justification as a rebirth and supernatural life in a former sinner:
(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Tit 3:5 DRB) Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.
That creates an inner renewal of the soul:
(Eph 4:23 DRB) And be renewed in spirit of your mind:
Resulting in complete sanctification:
(1Co 6:11 DRB) And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
Through this glorious process initiated by God’s grace the soul becomes beautiful, holy and worthy of heaven where nothing unclean is allowed. It is not an ugly sinful soul hidden under the blood of Jesus but instead one sanctified by Him and created anew for His glory.
(Dannyboy) I would argue that repentance (concerning salvation) is a one time thing, whereby we are given the promise of eternal life.
(Cristoiglesia) Many people seem to think that all they have to do is in a moment of emotion and/or reason ascent to recognition of Christ being their savior and their salvation to eternal life is assured. From that point forward it makes no difference that their life is changed and they will live differently. The only thing that has changed is that evil in their lives as displayed outwardly and lived inwardly no longer has an effect on their eternity as their one act of acceptance has made them immune to the actions of their sins at judgment and obligated God to accept them into His presence. Some will go so far as to say that one's sinfulness and evil has nothing to do with the value of their souls before God because even the most evil, sinful soul is covered rather than purified by Christ's atonement. It would appear that these people are saying that Christ's atonement is a method or sinister plan to allow sin in the presence of God draped in a covering of righteousness to conceal the evil within and that salvation is assured regardless of the state of their souls.
The question comes immediately to mind, how one can come to such conclusions considering the context of the body of Scriptures that contradict such a notion. I believe that it all comes down to one verse which is unique in all of Scripture that depicts Christ as a personal savior dependent on one’s inner conviction. All other Scriptures depict only salvation through the Church saying that He died for us, meaning the Church. St. Paul certainly taught this as he practiced seeking salvation through Christ's Church.
Here is the Scripture which through the eisegesis of some causes misunderstanding:
(Gal 2:20 DRB) And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me.
Some take this verse to mean that one need only repent and turn to God with the heart of a little child and their salvation is assured.
(Joh 3:3 DRB) Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Catholics see salvation quite differently than those who think that covering one’s sins is enough to enter the presence of God. We recognize that Christ has redeemed us on the cross and unlocked the gates of heaven and that redemption is not the same as salvation but instead a prelude to salvation. In order for us to receive salvation we must cooperate by being spiritually alive. Our soul cannot be in a natural state when we die to receive salvation and no covering of its sinfulness will be enough to hide what is beneath, a soul without the sanctifying grace cannot enter heaven. If, at death, the soul is sanctified then there is no doubt of heaven even if that soul needs to go to the purification of purgatory. Only souls that are indeed good and pleasing to God by being full of His sanctifying grace will merit heaven. It is the state of the soul at death that merits heaven and this fact emphasizes why we need God’s ongoing grace in our lives to persevere to the end.
(Dannyboy) Certainly, we can repent (change course) and turn to God throughout our lives, but none of it is pending or meriting salvation, which has already been granted when we first repented, and believed, whereby we were saved.
(Cristoiglesia) I contend that Scriptures cannot be reconciled with the Calvinist inspired belief in OSAS. OSAS is certainly a doctrine from hell saying that one cannot fall away from the faith regardless of their sinfulness. That all that is required is a one time emotional recognition of Christ and they are forever justified, sanctified and saved for all eternity. They can remain sinful creatures in reality but Christ’s blood will cover that sin so that they can be smuggled into heaven as a dirty sinful soul. Yet the person who is not a sinful person has no hope of heaven unless he has this one emotional recognition of Christ. That would tend to make one question the just nature of God.
Let us start out with Romans 10 that Calvinists use to prove OSAS and site verses 14-17. They read as follows:
(Rom 10:14 DRB) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
(Rom 10:15 DRB) And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things?
(Rom 10:16 DRB) But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report?
(Rom 10:17 DRB) Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
Obviously these verses have nothing to do with Calvin’s doctrine of eternal security but instead speak of our commission by Christ to spread the Gospel.
Calvinists will then offer as proof John 6 verses 37-40. They read as follows:
(Joh 6:37 DRB) All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
(Joh 6:38 DRB) Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39 DRB) Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
(Joh 6:40 DRB) And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
There are a couple of things being taught here. First of all Jesus is making it clear that He is not working independently from the Father but is within the will of the Father. Secondly, Jesus was giving assurance of all that come to Him that if they trust in Him and believe that they can rely in Him to overcome the snares of Satan which could cause them to fall away. They are not immune to the seduction of temptation but through the grace given by Christ may endure to the end. If one was to try to use these verses to support OSAS they would have to acknowledge the meaning here to be in support of universal salvation. Theses verses do not support OSAS or universal salvation.
The following is a posting of a portion of John 6:44-45 used to support OSAS. It reads as follows:
(Joh 6:44 DRB) No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.
(Joh 6:45 DRB) It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father and hath learned cometh forth me.
Again these verses do not support universal salvation as they may appear nor do they support OSAS. In verse 44 Jesus is affirming that it is the Father through the Holy Spirit that brings people to faith and is relating to the teaching of the prophet Isaiah who speaks of the law being written on each person’s heart that is surrendered to for initial salvation. Jesus is reminding us that it is God’s grace and the Spirit in harmony with the Father that initiates salvation and does not come only from a response within ourselves as a result of free will.
In verse 45 is actually presenting prophecy about the Messianic kingdom where people will be taught directly by God and was referring directly to the following prophecies:
(Isa 54:13 DRB) All thy children shall be taught of the Lord: and great shall be the peace of thy children.
(Jer 31:31 DRB) Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
(Jer 31:32 DRB) Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
(Jer 31:33 DRB) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:34 DRB) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Again, neither Jesus nor the prophets are teaching universal salvation or OSAS in verse 45. Jesus is speaking that not mere hearing of the Word is enough but we must learn what the Word of God teaches. We are taught by the prophets, by the apostles and their successors through the Church, by Sacred Tradition which contains the written and oral teaching of God and by the gift of discernment from the Spirit. We must open ourselves to all of these to receive the truth as all of these are God’s gift to humanity so that we may endure to eternity.
Calvinists often use the following as proof texts: John 10:27-30 to support OSAS. Here is what they say:
(Joh 10:27 DRB) My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.
(Joh 10:28 DRB) And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. And no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29 DRB) That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.
(Joh 10:30 DRB) I and the Father are one.
The verses provided refer to Jesus’ previous discourse before the festival. He explains who His sheep are. He describes His sheep as follows:
1. Those who hear His voice in faith.
2. Who are known by God as loving Him.
3. Those who follow Him by keeping His commandments.
Jesus goes on to say that those who meet His three conditions also receive three promises:
1. I give them eternal life. (Please note that He did not say, “I will” give them, which would indicate that they must continue in a state of ongoing sanctification and belief.)
2. It is provisional on their abiding in God’s love that they will receive the gift of eternal life.
3. Those that continue to believe and follow Christ and endure to final salvation are assured of eternal life. A perseverance to believe, love, and obey God is necessary to abide in the assurance in the hand of God.
These verses do not support the lawlessness of OSAS
Continuing we are given the following verses in the book of Acts 10 verses 34-45 as support for OSAS:
(Act 10:34 DRB) And Peter opening his mouth, said: in very deed I perceive that God is not a respecter of persons.
(Act 10:35 DRB) But in every nation, he that feareth him and worketh justice is acceptable to him.
(Act 10:36 DRB) God sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).
(Act 10:37 DRB) You know the word which hath been published through all Judea: for it began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached.
(Act 10:38 DRB) Jesus of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost and with power, who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
(Act 10:39 DRB) And we are witnesses of all things that he did in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem: whom they killed, hanging him upon a tree.
(Act 10:40 DRB) Him God raised up the third day and gave him to be made manifest,
(Act 10:41 DRB) Not to all the people, but to witnesses preordained by God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him, after he arose again from the dead.
(Act 10:42 DRB) And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that it is he who was appointed by God to be judge of the living and of the dead.
(Act 10:43 DRB) To him all the prophets give testimony, that by his name all receive remission of sins, who believe in him.
(Act 10:44 DRB) While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word.
(Act 10:45 DRB) And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.
In these verses we see the greater message of the struggle of St. Peter over the issue of Gentile converts with the passage ending with both Cornelius and St Peter realizing that they were dependent on each other: Cornelius needed St Peter to receive the Gospel message and know the way to salvation. Peter needed Cornelius and his salvation experience to realize that the Gentiles were included in God’s plan for salvation.
Verses 37-43 contain one of St. Peter’s greatest sermons stating the Gospel. It includes the servanthood of Jesus, death on the cross and resurrection which he personally experienced. He emphasized the fulfillment of Scriptures by Christ as well as the necessity of ongoing belief in Him. While these verses are some of my personal favorites they do nothing to support a belief in OSAS.
The following are in the book of Acts 15, verses 7-9 that Calvinists claim support OSAS:
(Act 15:7 DRB) And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(Act 15:8 DRB) And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us:
(Act 15:9 DRB) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
These verses have nothing to do with OSAS and do not support it in any way but instead deal with the Gentiles coming to faith. It does indicate the Episcopal structure of the Church and is an account of the first Ecumenical Council of the Church held in Jerusalem.
(1Co 9:27 DRB) But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
Verse 27 is recognized by skilled exegetes as one of the best texts at showing us the true biblical teaching of election and reprobation. I brings into focus that no one has been absolute and unconditionally elected to eternal life. Neither does it show that one is absolutely and unconditionally predestined to eternal death. What it does show is that Christians are to enjoy the privileges of being Christian on earth but if they abuse their privilege even though elect they will be among the reprobate. If anyone was among the elect I believe most Christians would agree that St. Paul would be one, but yet he declares that he feared being among the reprobate himself. He makes it clear to each of us that nothing can keep us from the seduction of temptation that can cause us to sin and that we must also strengthen the flesh and make it the slave of our spirit in righteousness, so that neither the flesh nor the spirit will betray our goal to remain among the elect. St. Paul’s message is, it is not enough to run the race well and to be judged to have fallen short of our goal of eternal life.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
V. THE PROLIFERATION OF SIN
1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.
1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called "capital" because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.
1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry to heaven": the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers.
1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
IN BRIEF
1870 "God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all" (Rom 11:32
).
1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22: PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man's nature and injures human solidarity.
1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.
1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.
1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.
1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.
________________________________________
113 Cf. Lk 15.
114 Mt 1:21.
115 Mt 26:28.
116 St. Augustine, Sermo 169, 11, 13: PL 38, 923.
117 1 Jn 8-9.
118 Rom 5:20.
119 Rom 5:21.
120 John Paul II, DeV 31 # 2.
121 St. Augustine, Contra Faustum 22: PL 42, 418; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 71, 6.
122 Ps 51:4.
123 Gen 3:5.
124 St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 14, 28: PL 41, 436.
125 Cf. Phil 2:6-9.
126 Cf. Jn 14:30.
127 Gal 5:19-21; CE Rom 1:28-32; 1 Cor 9-10; EPh 5:3-5; Col 3:5-8; 1 Tim 9-10; 2 Tim 2-5.
128 Mt 15:19-20.
129 Cf. 1 Jn 16-17.
130 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 88, 2, corp. art.
131 RP 17 # 12.
132 Mk 10:19.
133 Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.
134 John Paul II, RP 17 # 9.
135 St. Augustine, In ep. Jo. 1, 6: PL 35, 1982.
136 Mt 12:31; cf. Mk 3:29; Lk 12:10.
137 Cf. John Paul II, DeV 46.
138 Cf. St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, 31, 45: PL 76, 621A.
139 Cf. Gen 4:10.
140 Cf. Gen 18:20; 19:13.
141 Cf. Ex 3:7-10.
142 Cf. Ex 20:20-22.
143 Cf. Deut 24:14-15; Jas 5:4.
144 John Paul II, RP 16.
(Dannyboy) Or, once we receive Christ, that we even in order to attain forgiveness from future sins?
(Cristoiglesia) Some say that justification is a legal act of God in which He declares the sinner to be worthy of heaven even though he continues to be a sinful creature. In this view of justification there is no internal renewal or real sanctification whether instant or through a lifelong process but simply an external application of the justice of Christ.
To Catholic Christians and many other Christians, justification is understood differently. We understand from Scriptures that justification is not the covering of sin but the eradication and the beginning of true sanctification and simultaneous renewal. The soul is transformed into goodness instead of being a sinful soul with sins covered by Christ’s blood. We see Scriptures saying that forgiveness results in a complete removal of sins. The only time the Bible mentions the covering of sin is in the context of one man’s sin being forgiven by another. One should note that we have no power to forgive another’s sin, therefore the context is that we do all we can and cover or overlook those sins against us. In relation to God and His removal of sin the Scriptures use quite different terminology such as “blot out”, “blotting out”, “clears away” and “takes away”.
Catholics see justification as a rebirth and supernatural life in a former sinner:
(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Tit 3:5 DRB) Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.
That creates an inner renewal of the soul:
(Eph 4:23 DRB) And be renewed in spirit of your mind:
Resulting in complete sanctification:
(1Co 6:11 DRB) And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
Through this glorious process initiated by God’s grace the soul becomes beautiful, holy and worthy of heaven where nothing unclean is allowed. It is not an ugly sinful soul hidden under the blood of Jesus but instead one sanctified by Him and created anew for His glory.
(Dannyboy) I would argue that repentance (concerning salvation) is a one time thing, whereby we are given the promise of eternal life.
(Cristoiglesia) Many people seem to think that all they have to do is in a moment of emotion and/or reason ascent to recognition of Christ being their savior and their salvation to eternal life is assured. From that point forward it makes no difference that their life is changed and they will live differently. The only thing that has changed is that evil in their lives as displayed outwardly and lived inwardly no longer has an effect on their eternity as their one act of acceptance has made them immune to the actions of their sins at judgment and obligated God to accept them into His presence. Some will go so far as to say that one's sinfulness and evil has nothing to do with the value of their souls before God because even the most evil, sinful soul is covered rather than purified by Christ's atonement. It would appear that these people are saying that Christ's atonement is a method or sinister plan to allow sin in the presence of God draped in a covering of righteousness to conceal the evil within and that salvation is assured regardless of the state of their souls.
The question comes immediately to mind, how one can come to such conclusions considering the context of the body of Scriptures that contradict such a notion. I believe that it all comes down to one verse which is unique in all of Scripture that depicts Christ as a personal savior dependent on one’s inner conviction. All other Scriptures depict only salvation through the Church saying that He died for us, meaning the Church. St. Paul certainly taught this as he practiced seeking salvation through Christ's Church.
Here is the Scripture which through the eisegesis of some causes misunderstanding:
(Gal 2:20 DRB) And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me.
Some take this verse to mean that one need only repent and turn to God with the heart of a little child and their salvation is assured.
(Joh 3:3 DRB) Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Catholics see salvation quite differently than those who think that covering one’s sins is enough to enter the presence of God. We recognize that Christ has redeemed us on the cross and unlocked the gates of heaven and that redemption is not the same as salvation but instead a prelude to salvation. In order for us to receive salvation we must cooperate by being spiritually alive. Our soul cannot be in a natural state when we die to receive salvation and no covering of its sinfulness will be enough to hide what is beneath, a soul without the sanctifying grace cannot enter heaven. If, at death, the soul is sanctified then there is no doubt of heaven even if that soul needs to go to the purification of purgatory. Only souls that are indeed good and pleasing to God by being full of His sanctifying grace will merit heaven. It is the state of the soul at death that merits heaven and this fact emphasizes why we need God’s ongoing grace in our lives to persevere to the end.
(Dannyboy) Certainly, we can repent (change course) and turn to God throughout our lives, but none of it is pending or meriting salvation, which has already been granted when we first repented, and believed, whereby we were saved.
(Cristoiglesia) I contend that Scriptures cannot be reconciled with the Calvinist inspired belief in OSAS. OSAS is certainly a doctrine from hell saying that one cannot fall away from the faith regardless of their sinfulness. That all that is required is a one time emotional recognition of Christ and they are forever justified, sanctified and saved for all eternity. They can remain sinful creatures in reality but Christ’s blood will cover that sin so that they can be smuggled into heaven as a dirty sinful soul. Yet the person who is not a sinful person has no hope of heaven unless he has this one emotional recognition of Christ. That would tend to make one question the just nature of God.
Let us start out with Romans 10 that Calvinists use to prove OSAS and site verses 14-17. They read as follows:
(Rom 10:14 DRB) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
(Rom 10:15 DRB) And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things?
(Rom 10:16 DRB) But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report?
(Rom 10:17 DRB) Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
Obviously these verses have nothing to do with Calvin’s doctrine of eternal security but instead speak of our commission by Christ to spread the Gospel.
Calvinists will then offer as proof John 6 verses 37-40. They read as follows:
(Joh 6:37 DRB) All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
(Joh 6:38 DRB) Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39 DRB) Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
(Joh 6:40 DRB) And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
There are a couple of things being taught here. First of all Jesus is making it clear that He is not working independently from the Father but is within the will of the Father. Secondly, Jesus was giving assurance of all that come to Him that if they trust in Him and believe that they can rely in Him to overcome the snares of Satan which could cause them to fall away. They are not immune to the seduction of temptation but through the grace given by Christ may endure to the end. If one was to try to use these verses to support OSAS they would have to acknowledge the meaning here to be in support of universal salvation. Theses verses do not support OSAS or universal salvation.
The following is a posting of a portion of John 6:44-45 used to support OSAS. It reads as follows:
(Joh 6:44 DRB) No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.
(Joh 6:45 DRB) It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father and hath learned cometh forth me.
Again these verses do not support universal salvation as they may appear nor do they support OSAS. In verse 44 Jesus is affirming that it is the Father through the Holy Spirit that brings people to faith and is relating to the teaching of the prophet Isaiah who speaks of the law being written on each person’s heart that is surrendered to for initial salvation. Jesus is reminding us that it is God’s grace and the Spirit in harmony with the Father that initiates salvation and does not come only from a response within ourselves as a result of free will.
In verse 45 is actually presenting prophecy about the Messianic kingdom where people will be taught directly by God and was referring directly to the following prophecies:
(Isa 54:13 DRB) All thy children shall be taught of the Lord: and great shall be the peace of thy children.
(Jer 31:31 DRB) Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
(Jer 31:32 DRB) Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
(Jer 31:33 DRB) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:34 DRB) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Again, neither Jesus nor the prophets are teaching universal salvation or OSAS in verse 45. Jesus is speaking that not mere hearing of the Word is enough but we must learn what the Word of God teaches. We are taught by the prophets, by the apostles and their successors through the Church, by Sacred Tradition which contains the written and oral teaching of God and by the gift of discernment from the Spirit. We must open ourselves to all of these to receive the truth as all of these are God’s gift to humanity so that we may endure to eternity.
Calvinists often use the following as proof texts: John 10:27-30 to support OSAS. Here is what they say:
(Joh 10:27 DRB) My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.
(Joh 10:28 DRB) And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. And no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29 DRB) That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.
(Joh 10:30 DRB) I and the Father are one.
The verses provided refer to Jesus’ previous discourse before the festival. He explains who His sheep are. He describes His sheep as follows:
1. Those who hear His voice in faith.
2. Who are known by God as loving Him.
3. Those who follow Him by keeping His commandments.
Jesus goes on to say that those who meet His three conditions also receive three promises:
1. I give them eternal life. (Please note that He did not say, “I will” give them, which would indicate that they must continue in a state of ongoing sanctification and belief.)
2. It is provisional on their abiding in God’s love that they will receive the gift of eternal life.
3. Those that continue to believe and follow Christ and endure to final salvation are assured of eternal life. A perseverance to believe, love, and obey God is necessary to abide in the assurance in the hand of God.
These verses do not support the lawlessness of OSAS
Continuing we are given the following verses in the book of Acts 10 verses 34-45 as support for OSAS:
(Act 10:34 DRB) And Peter opening his mouth, said: in very deed I perceive that God is not a respecter of persons.
(Act 10:35 DRB) But in every nation, he that feareth him and worketh justice is acceptable to him.
(Act 10:36 DRB) God sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).
(Act 10:37 DRB) You know the word which hath been published through all Judea: for it began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached.
(Act 10:38 DRB) Jesus of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost and with power, who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
(Act 10:39 DRB) And we are witnesses of all things that he did in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem: whom they killed, hanging him upon a tree.
(Act 10:40 DRB) Him God raised up the third day and gave him to be made manifest,
(Act 10:41 DRB) Not to all the people, but to witnesses preordained by God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him, after he arose again from the dead.
(Act 10:42 DRB) And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that it is he who was appointed by God to be judge of the living and of the dead.
(Act 10:43 DRB) To him all the prophets give testimony, that by his name all receive remission of sins, who believe in him.
(Act 10:44 DRB) While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word.
(Act 10:45 DRB) And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.
In these verses we see the greater message of the struggle of St. Peter over the issue of Gentile converts with the passage ending with both Cornelius and St Peter realizing that they were dependent on each other: Cornelius needed St Peter to receive the Gospel message and know the way to salvation. Peter needed Cornelius and his salvation experience to realize that the Gentiles were included in God’s plan for salvation.
Verses 37-43 contain one of St. Peter’s greatest sermons stating the Gospel. It includes the servanthood of Jesus, death on the cross and resurrection which he personally experienced. He emphasized the fulfillment of Scriptures by Christ as well as the necessity of ongoing belief in Him. While these verses are some of my personal favorites they do nothing to support a belief in OSAS.
The following are in the book of Acts 15, verses 7-9 that Calvinists claim support OSAS:
(Act 15:7 DRB) And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(Act 15:8 DRB) And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us:
(Act 15:9 DRB) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
These verses have nothing to do with OSAS and do not support it in any way but instead deal with the Gentiles coming to faith. It does indicate the Episcopal structure of the Church and is an account of the first Ecumenical Council of the Church held in Jerusalem.
(1Co 9:27 DRB) But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
Verse 27 is recognized by skilled exegetes as one of the best texts at showing us the true biblical teaching of election and reprobation. I brings into focus that no one has been absolute and unconditionally elected to eternal life. Neither does it show that one is absolutely and unconditionally predestined to eternal death. What it does show is that Christians are to enjoy the privileges of being Christian on earth but if they abuse their privilege even though elect they will be among the reprobate. If anyone was among the elect I believe most Christians would agree that St. Paul would be one, but yet he declares that he feared being among the reprobate himself. He makes it clear to each of us that nothing can keep us from the seduction of temptation that can cause us to sin and that we must also strengthen the flesh and make it the slave of our spirit in righteousness, so that neither the flesh nor the spirit will betray our goal to remain among the elect. St. Paul’s message is, it is not enough to run the race well and to be judged to have fallen short of our goal of eternal life.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
26 April, 2010
How Catholics feel about the pedophile accusations
I think what most of are upset about is the lies and half-truths being spread by the media about the Church. The media is grouping pedophilia, corporeal punishment and homosexuality into an allegation of pedophilia. The occurrence of pedophilia is the lowest by a wide margin than any other church or adult group. Even family members and school teachers have a higher incidence of this crime.
What the press is calling cover-up is not the cover ups of crimes but of illicit and scandalous liaisons of homosexual priests and young adults. What he Church did was to send them to treatment for their homosexual perversion on the advice that they could be cured by the medical community. When they were declared cured by the doctors they were put back into ministry. Hindsight tells us the foolishness of this approach and the Church has not done this in decades. The Church has since purged itself of predatory homosexuals. Some of these who were treated did commit crimes later but no one that I can find was a pedophile that was returned to ministry. All of them were prosecuted by the civil authorities and lacitized by the Church. Pedophilia was not covered-up. The reason the civil authorities did not prosecute the priests that went to treatment is because no law was broken.
Much of the abuse being talked about is corporeal abuse (spanking) done by caregivers in Church run reform schools. In the past spanking was not a crime. I was spanked in public schools and I was not a problem child like the children in the reform schools. I am not saying this was right but that it was part of the culture 30 to 60 years ago. Back then if I got spanked at school I got an even greater spanking at home.
Then there is the problem of the press reporting this alleged abuse as if it is current within the Church when it actually occurred 30 to 60 years ago. The alleged perpetrators are often dead when these allegations are made. Usually they come forward after being enticed by attorneys doing these class action suits to make allegations on the promise of great financial gain. As a result less than 10% of the allegations have any merit and almost none of them have a living alleged perpetrator who can defend the claims against him.
Anyone sexually abusing children should be punished with the full weight of the law and of the Church. All victims should receive restitution. Everything should be done to ensure that children are safe in Church. The record shows that Pope Benedict has done everything possible for this end. The Church now is probably the safest place for children, even safer than their own homes. There are very few merited accusations against the Church in the last decade. My concern is that the focus on the scandal in the Church decades ago is diverting the attention from the fact that pedophilia and other sexual abuse is rampant and of epidemic proportions in secular world among teachers, scout masters, step-fathers and fathers and unfortunately extremely common in the Protestant sects. To these groups the Catholic Church is a shining example of how to deal with this problem and make all churches safer places for children like the Catholic Church has done. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
What the press is calling cover-up is not the cover ups of crimes but of illicit and scandalous liaisons of homosexual priests and young adults. What he Church did was to send them to treatment for their homosexual perversion on the advice that they could be cured by the medical community. When they were declared cured by the doctors they were put back into ministry. Hindsight tells us the foolishness of this approach and the Church has not done this in decades. The Church has since purged itself of predatory homosexuals. Some of these who were treated did commit crimes later but no one that I can find was a pedophile that was returned to ministry. All of them were prosecuted by the civil authorities and lacitized by the Church. Pedophilia was not covered-up. The reason the civil authorities did not prosecute the priests that went to treatment is because no law was broken.
Much of the abuse being talked about is corporeal abuse (spanking) done by caregivers in Church run reform schools. In the past spanking was not a crime. I was spanked in public schools and I was not a problem child like the children in the reform schools. I am not saying this was right but that it was part of the culture 30 to 60 years ago. Back then if I got spanked at school I got an even greater spanking at home.
Then there is the problem of the press reporting this alleged abuse as if it is current within the Church when it actually occurred 30 to 60 years ago. The alleged perpetrators are often dead when these allegations are made. Usually they come forward after being enticed by attorneys doing these class action suits to make allegations on the promise of great financial gain. As a result less than 10% of the allegations have any merit and almost none of them have a living alleged perpetrator who can defend the claims against him.
Anyone sexually abusing children should be punished with the full weight of the law and of the Church. All victims should receive restitution. Everything should be done to ensure that children are safe in Church. The record shows that Pope Benedict has done everything possible for this end. The Church now is probably the safest place for children, even safer than their own homes. There are very few merited accusations against the Church in the last decade. My concern is that the focus on the scandal in the Church decades ago is diverting the attention from the fact that pedophilia and other sexual abuse is rampant and of epidemic proportions in secular world among teachers, scout masters, step-fathers and fathers and unfortunately extremely common in the Protestant sects. To these groups the Catholic Church is a shining example of how to deal with this problem and make all churches safer places for children like the Catholic Church has done. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
17 April, 2010
Continuing criticism of the Church by "Truthsayer"
(Cristoiglesia) Yes I am convinced that Jesus is God, the creator of all things and the Savior of the world.
(Truthsayer) Really? "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the demons also believe and tremble." (James 2:19)
"But wilt thou know O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)
Notice the context of James 2:20.. The context demands that we understand that even demons believe, but they do not exhibit the works that accompany salvation.
"Works" are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT.
"Things that accompany Salvation." (Hebrews 6:9)
"When the Apostle speaks of virtues and of graces, he calls them "things that accompany Salvation," not things which cause it. Our faith does not cause Salvation, nor our hope, nor our love, nor our good works; they are things which attend it as its guard of honor. The origin of Salvation lies alone in the sovereign will of God the Father; in the infinite efficacy of the blood of Jesus—God the Son, and in the divine influence of God the Holy Spirit. There are, however, "things that accompany Salvation." (Spurgeon)
(Cristoiglesia) Hummm, so now you are retracting your previous belief in “faith alone” I see. That is some great progress when you come to the Catholic understanding of faith and works and their relation to salvation. There may be hope for you in Christ after all.
Spurgeon errs in saying that “The origin of Salvation lies alone in the sovereign will of God” by not explaining that God desires that we all come to faith and obedience to Him but He also gives us free will to accept His gift of grace or reject it.
Deu 30:11) This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
(Deu 30:12) Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
(Deu 30:13) Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
(Deu 30:14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
This is the teaching of Moses where Moses tells the people the importance of the law being upon their hearts and how it is essential for God’s plan for humanity. We rarely see reference to these verses because they speak most profoundly against Calvinist predestination that says only some are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to hell. If the law is written on everyone’s heart by God, then for what purpose, except to provide a pathway to eternity in Christ. I heard a preacher in a small Pentecostal Church in the mountains of Kentucky in a town called Pawpaw say that the law on our hearts was like the Rosetta stone allowing us to understand the things of God, that the law contains the very concept of faith and this grace and this Godliness coexists with our inherent sinfulness until we are washed by the blood of the Lamb with our surrender and become pure of heart within God’s law and consequently within His will. We can not be within God’s will without obedience to this imputed law that along with inherited sin intuitively shows us the need for a Savior, Christ Jesus. This is why we have no excuse for our lack of surrender to God because He is not only evident in His creation but He is a part of our very being upon our creation.
How could one understand God’s demands upon us without this law? How can we understand God’s will for us to live within righteousness and justice if not for this law that abides always in our conscience? We often think of God’s law as something without us but in fact it is eternal within our beings, which call to intuition the will of God. This is essential for without the law we can not know God.
Now the law on our hearts should not be confused with those external laws of men. The law written on our hearts is the law that makes us understand righteousness, justice, love and reconciliation. The law in our hearts is not the external law that can result in legalism where the letter of the law is followed at the expense of the spirit of the law. There is no other means by which we know His voice when He speaks to our spirit.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
(Rom 10:6) But the justice which is of faith, speaketh thus: Say not in thy heart: Who shall ascend into heaven? That is to bring Christ down;
(Rom 10:7) Or who shall descend into the deep? That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(Rom 10:8) But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:9) For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.
( Truthsayer) By denying that there is a "present salvation" you are putting yourself in the same condition as the demons. You believe the same way they do, and like them, there are no works, or evidence that suggest that you are saved, as a matter of fact you've stated of that you are not saved.”
(Cristoiglesia)So, you are judging me to be one who has no works as if you have the ability to know all things and to look into the hearts of others. You are being very judgmental to be a mere mortal sinner who refuses to be obedient to Christ’s Church. I have good works but I also have very bad works for which I am sorely ashamed. I was once like you, full of pride that the man-made church I served contained more truth and had more veracity than Christ’s Church. I evangelized Catholics to leave their Church for my counterfeit church. I have much to repent for and I pray that Jesus will have mercy on me who labored against His Church. But His grace He watched for my coming home like the father of the prodigal son looking longingly for his son. He never gave up even though I said and did many things against His Church and His faithful. May our Lord have mercy on me and people like you who hate His Church and work against its mission to the world that He committed to His Church. When the time comes to be saved my hope is to be full of His sanctifying grace.
(Truthsayer) Time to rethink, my friend!
Truthsayer
(Cristoiglesia)
I already have and Jesus brought me home. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Truthsayer) Really? "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the demons also believe and tremble." (James 2:19)
"But wilt thou know O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)
Notice the context of James 2:20.. The context demands that we understand that even demons believe, but they do not exhibit the works that accompany salvation.
"Works" are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT.
"Things that accompany Salvation." (Hebrews 6:9)
"When the Apostle speaks of virtues and of graces, he calls them "things that accompany Salvation," not things which cause it. Our faith does not cause Salvation, nor our hope, nor our love, nor our good works; they are things which attend it as its guard of honor. The origin of Salvation lies alone in the sovereign will of God the Father; in the infinite efficacy of the blood of Jesus—God the Son, and in the divine influence of God the Holy Spirit. There are, however, "things that accompany Salvation." (Spurgeon)
(Cristoiglesia) Hummm, so now you are retracting your previous belief in “faith alone” I see. That is some great progress when you come to the Catholic understanding of faith and works and their relation to salvation. There may be hope for you in Christ after all.
Spurgeon errs in saying that “The origin of Salvation lies alone in the sovereign will of God” by not explaining that God desires that we all come to faith and obedience to Him but He also gives us free will to accept His gift of grace or reject it.
Deu 30:11) This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
(Deu 30:12) Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
(Deu 30:13) Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
(Deu 30:14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
This is the teaching of Moses where Moses tells the people the importance of the law being upon their hearts and how it is essential for God’s plan for humanity. We rarely see reference to these verses because they speak most profoundly against Calvinist predestination that says only some are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to hell. If the law is written on everyone’s heart by God, then for what purpose, except to provide a pathway to eternity in Christ. I heard a preacher in a small Pentecostal Church in the mountains of Kentucky in a town called Pawpaw say that the law on our hearts was like the Rosetta stone allowing us to understand the things of God, that the law contains the very concept of faith and this grace and this Godliness coexists with our inherent sinfulness until we are washed by the blood of the Lamb with our surrender and become pure of heart within God’s law and consequently within His will. We can not be within God’s will without obedience to this imputed law that along with inherited sin intuitively shows us the need for a Savior, Christ Jesus. This is why we have no excuse for our lack of surrender to God because He is not only evident in His creation but He is a part of our very being upon our creation.
How could one understand God’s demands upon us without this law? How can we understand God’s will for us to live within righteousness and justice if not for this law that abides always in our conscience? We often think of God’s law as something without us but in fact it is eternal within our beings, which call to intuition the will of God. This is essential for without the law we can not know God.
Now the law on our hearts should not be confused with those external laws of men. The law written on our hearts is the law that makes us understand righteousness, justice, love and reconciliation. The law in our hearts is not the external law that can result in legalism where the letter of the law is followed at the expense of the spirit of the law. There is no other means by which we know His voice when He speaks to our spirit.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
(Rom 10:6) But the justice which is of faith, speaketh thus: Say not in thy heart: Who shall ascend into heaven? That is to bring Christ down;
(Rom 10:7) Or who shall descend into the deep? That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(Rom 10:8) But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:9) For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.
( Truthsayer) By denying that there is a "present salvation" you are putting yourself in the same condition as the demons. You believe the same way they do, and like them, there are no works, or evidence that suggest that you are saved, as a matter of fact you've stated of that you are not saved.”
(Cristoiglesia)So, you are judging me to be one who has no works as if you have the ability to know all things and to look into the hearts of others. You are being very judgmental to be a mere mortal sinner who refuses to be obedient to Christ’s Church. I have good works but I also have very bad works for which I am sorely ashamed. I was once like you, full of pride that the man-made church I served contained more truth and had more veracity than Christ’s Church. I evangelized Catholics to leave their Church for my counterfeit church. I have much to repent for and I pray that Jesus will have mercy on me who labored against His Church. But His grace He watched for my coming home like the father of the prodigal son looking longingly for his son. He never gave up even though I said and did many things against His Church and His faithful. May our Lord have mercy on me and people like you who hate His Church and work against its mission to the world that He committed to His Church. When the time comes to be saved my hope is to be full of His sanctifying grace.
(Truthsayer) Time to rethink, my friend!
Truthsayer
(Cristoiglesia)
I already have and Jesus brought me home. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
Continuing discussion with "Truthsayer" about the Church
(Truthsayer) It's obvious that your trust is in the RCC.... You have bought this religion hook, line, and sinker.
(Cristoiglesia) Yes I am convinced that Jesus is God, the creator of all things and the Savior of the world. I am convinced that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Him and since it is and was the only Church that it is the Church that He prayed we all be one within at the garden of Gethsemane before His crucifixion and resurrection.
(Truthsayer) I hope that you'll have a time in your life when you realize that you need to read the New Testament through the eyes of faith and not through the sordid lens of the RCC.
(Cristoiglesia) I was a Protestant for fifty years before becoming Catholic. I always read the Bible open and desiring to learn instead of the way yourself and most Protestants read the Bible which is to support their man-made doctrines and to ignore all scriptures that are contrary to their man-made heresies. Reading the Bible as I have always done in a humble scholarly way is what brought me to Catholicism.
(Truthsayer) Let me summarize some basic things that you need to know.
(Cristoiglesia) OK
(Truthsayer) 1. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone, (Ephesians 2:8-10), "not of works, lest any man should boast." When a person is saved they are automatically added to the Church which is HIS body.. (It doesn't belong to the RCC or any other denomination.)
(Cristioiglesia) I think there are things you should know and I am pleased to address this common Protestant heresy of “faith alone”. The only place that “faith alone” is mentioned in scriptures is when it is condemned in the book of James. Martin Luther the author of “faith alone” regretted this doctrine later on in life and questioned his salvation because of introducing this error into Christianity. This Protestant doctrine is truly a doctrine from hell.
Many people, like yourself, seem to think that all they have to do is in a moment of emotion and/or reason ascent to recognition of Christ being their savior and their salvation to eternal life is assured. From that point forward it makes no difference that their life is changed and they will live differently. The only thing that has changed is that evil in their lives as displayed outwardly and lived inwardly no longer has an effect on their eternity as their one act of acceptance has made them immune to the actions of their sins at judgment and obligated God to accept them into His presence. Some will go so far as to say that one's sinfulness and evil has nothing to do with the value of their souls before God because even the most evil, sinful soul is covered rather than purified by Christ's atonement. It would appear that these people are saying that Christ's atonement is a method or sinister plan to allow sin in the presence of God draped in a covering of righteousness to conceal the evil within and that salvation is assured regardless of the state of their souls.
The question comes immediately to mind, how one can come to such conclusions considering the context of the body of Scriptures that contradict such a notion. I believe that it all comes down to one verse which is unique in all of Scripture that depicts Christ as a personal savior dependent on one’s inner conviction. All other Scriptures depict only salvation through the Church saying that He died for us, meaning the Church. St. Paul certainly taught this as he practiced seeking salvation through Christ's Church.
Here is the Scripture which through the eisegesis of some causes misunderstanding:
(Gal 2:20 DRB) And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me.
Some take this verse to mean that one need only repent and turn to God with the heart of a little child and their salvation is assured.
(Joh 3:3 DRB) Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Catholics see salvation quite differently than those who think that covering one’s sins is enough to enter the presence of God. We recognize that Christ has redeemed us on the cross and unlocked the gates of heaven and that redemption is not the same as salvation but instead a prelude to salvation. In order for us to receive salvation we must cooperate by being spiritually alive. Our soul cannot be in a natural state when we die to receive salvation and no covering of its sinfulness will be enough to hide what is beneath, a soul without the sanctifying grace cannot enter heaven. If, at death, the soul is sanctified then there is no doubt of heaven even if that soul needs to go to the purification of purgatory. Only souls that are indeed good and pleasing to God by being full of His sanctifying grace will merit heaven. It is the state of the soul at death that merits heaven and this fact emphasizes why we need God’s ongoing grace in our lives to persevere to the end.
(Truthsayer) 2. After a person is saved they should be baptized by immersion. This is the ONLY believers baptism mentioned in the New Testament. (Acts 2)
(Cristoiglesia) Let me say that I have no problem with immersion Baptism but I do have a problem with those people that say it is the only valid method of Baptism.
The Bible is totally silent as to the method to be used in Baptism. Furthermore there is no example in Scriptures of anyone being Baptized by immersion or any other methodology. The Bible is totally silent as to how it is to be done. Only the “Didache” gives any description as to the Method and form of Baptism. The Didache says the following:
The Didache was written around A.D. 70 and, though not inspired, is a strong witness to the sacramental practice of Christians in the apostolic age. In its seventh chapter, the Didache reads, "Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." These instructions were composed either while some of the apostles and disciples were still alive or during the next generation of Christians, and they represent an already established custom.
So clearly immersion only Baptism is not at all biblical.
(Truthsayer) 3. After a person is saved and baptized they are expected to continue steadfastly in the "Apostles doctrine", fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer. (Acts 2) They are to be gathered together according to Mathew 18:20.
(Cristoiglesia) You are very confused about a couple of things which causes you to ere. First of all a person is not saved until their earthly death. If their soul is full of salvific grace they are saved. When one is baptized they come into the familial relationship with God and are given the gift of the Holy Spirit that leads them to grace.
Now let us examine the scripture verses you provided:
Matthew 18:15-20 (King James Version)
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here Matthew is recording the teaching of Jesus to the disciples who were to become the foundation of the Church. In the first century the Church was defined by the disciples after the resurrection as those who gather around the Bishops. We know this because this is the definition recorded by the disciple of St. John and St. Peter who was the third bishop of Antioch named St. Ignatius. He wrote in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Chapter 9. Honour the bishop
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
So, the fellowship being spoken here is defined as the Church and the Church is defined as those who follow the Bishops. Those that have separated themselves from the Church like you are not a part of the communion spoken of here but are instead outside of unity with the Church which describes the Protestants like yourself. The scriptures you referred to say that we are to treat you like the heathen and the publicans because you refuse out of your carnal pride to hear the Church. So, you are correct that it speaks of fellowship but you fail to recognize that you as a Protestant are outside of that fellowship according to the scriptures you provided as reference.
(Truthsayer) The "breaking of bread" mentioned in Acts 2 is simple obedience to the Savior when He instituted a "remembrance of Himself" when He was alone with His disciples in the upper room on the same night that He was betrayed... By the way.. In connection with this, Christ was not introducing cannibalism... The bread and cup were symbolic of His body and blood.
(Cristoiglesia) For the Christian today it is a great honor to be called a cannibal because this is the label we received by those that persecuted us in the first few centuries of the Church. It was a pejorative label given to us by the Jews and Pagans that hated us. Thank you for calling us the same hate filled name as they called those who were the disciples of our Lord that were martyred for their faith. But we are not worthy as our sacrifice is not as great as theirs.
The Israelites continued to remember their bitter bondage while in Egypt. Jesus instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice as a reminder of the sorrow and brokenness of humanity lost in sin before His atoning sacrifice. The Israelites before and the Jewish people today continue to recall that God brought them out of bondage and the miracle of the Passover.
The ongoing celebration of the Mass is very different from the Passover celebration in that it is not a recalling of a one time event but a continuing sacrifice with Jesus as the priest and the victim. We are not celebrating this to recall what we have read or been told but are really and actually at the foot of the Cross with the blessed mother and St. John. In the Bible it says that we are to do this in “remembrance” as it is often translated into English but that same word in Koine Greek is actually “anamnesis” which has no English equivalent. “Remembrance” is a rather crude and awkward approximation of the true meaning of “anamnesis” which denotes a miracle. Recalling something to memory is hardly a divine miracle. So, there is clearly a difference between the ongoing practice of recalling the bondage of Egypt and the command of our Lord to “do this in “anamnesis” of me which we do in the one miracle of the Eucharist. Jesus provides the great feast of His actual Body and Blood in exactly the form, time and place at the foot of the cross as He said. It is completely recognizing the fact that we discern His Body and Blood in the Spirit of faith as He said and not by our human carnal reason as Protestants struggle to do.
In John 6:51 Jesus says that He is the bread from heaven. He is not talking of a huge loaf of bread which all believers must partake but makes it clear that it is His actual flesh that brings life eternal and not a recalling or remembrance of His flesh. Obviously this is a miracle not unlike the miracle of His feeding the multitudes before. The disciples would have believed because they had just witnessed a similar miracle. Also His relating this feast to manna (John 6:49-50) illustrates its temporary sustenance and contrasts it to the enduring nature bestowed by eating His flesh.
“51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Surely if this was a remembrance or recalling only it would necessitate a killing of another lamb which would not be the self same sacrifice but another symbolic of the first whose blood spread on the entrance to their homes with the hyssop branch saved their first born sons. It was this Old Covenant celebration that necessitated the ongoing sacrifice of the temple which was the only place that the lambs could be slaughtered because only the priests could kill the Passover lamb in remembrance of the real and original sacrifice. It is significant that St. John records, since He was the only one of the Gospel writers present that, Jesus was killed at the exact same time of the representative Paschal lambs at the Temple. This indicated a new ongoing sacrifice once for all times of the New Covenant.
The Eucharist is not a recalling of Calvary. It is not a remembrance of Calvary. Instead, it is the one, same sacrifice with the real Christ as the victim and priest that transcends time and place as the heavenly feast of His real flesh which is the food to endure to final salvation for all mankind. At every Mass we eat the same flesh of our Lord that He served at the last supper and we who abide in Him will continue for all times.
John6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
(Truthsayer) I know that you've rejected these truths many times.. That's your choice.. God doesn't force anyone to believe Him against their will. "A man convinced against his will, Is of the same opinion still."
(Cristoiglesia) I have never rejected truth but instead I have always pursued the truth. When I was an anti-Catholic like you the pursuit of the truth is what brought me to the Catholic Church kicking and screaming. I never wanted to be Catholic but the Holy Spirit never stopped leading me to the Church. Those who come to the Church founded by Jesus and His disciples are blessed abundantly, especially so when pulled away from the darkness and desert of truth and practice in the Protestant sects to the fullness of truth and practice of the Catholic Church. It is you who Protests His Church and not I.
(Truthsayer) One last thought, you claim to have been trained in a Baptist theological seminary.. This only proves one thing.. Not everyone that attends a Baptist Seminary is saved. If you had been, you may still have left the Baptists but you wouldn't have joined up with the Roman Catholic Church.
(Cristoiglesia) Praise God He has not saved me yet but by His grace I will be saved upon my death. No one who attends a Baptist seminary is saved but they all have the hope of salvation which is the state of all mankind. Many Baptists have joined the Catholic Church. In fact entire congregations of Baptists have come home to Christ’s Church. Christ’s Church is superior to anything that man will ever create. Christ built it on the firmest of foundations. Using construction vernacular Jesus said that He is the cornerstone of the Church and that the 12 disciples are the foundation stones. That foundation of rock is built upon through apostolic succession. The people who are blessed to receive the call to His Church gather around the teaching authority of these original disciples given to them by Christ Himself.
All Protestant churches are built upon foundations of sand that shift and destroy those sects through schisms perpetrated by the pride of men. Some men not blessed with discernment by the Holy Spirit actually delude themselves into believing that they can create and found a Church that has more authority and veracity than the Church founded by our Lord. Such delusion is the work of Satan who labors to keep the fullness of truth from mankind lest they be faithful and obedient to our Lord through His Church or the fellowship we discussed earlier in Mat 18: 15-20.
(Truthsayer)I have been spending much time studying Paul's epistle to the Galations.. It occurs to me that many of the false doctrines and pagan rituals embraced by the RCC must have begun to raise their ugly heads in the churches in Galatia and this is one of the primary reasons that Paul was writing them this letter of correction.
(Cristoiglesia) There is one huge problem with your conclusion. There are no Pagan rituals or false doctrines in the Catholic Church. Jesus said that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. He sad that it would endure for all times and it is recorded in the scriptures, that the Church founded by our Lord and led to all truth by the Paraclete is the “pillar and foundation of the truth.” Does it not bother you that in making your statements and coming to your prejudiced erroneous conclusions that you , in doing so, are calling our Lord at best and incompetent in founding His Church or at worst a liar when He gave His promises to mankind about His Church? How does that build one’s faith? It does not but is just the kind of rhetoric we would expect from the father of lies.
(Truthsayer)
P.S. I would go as far as to suggest that being "in Christ" and "being in the RCC" are mutually exclusive concepts.
(Cristoiglesia) I would be surprised at this time in your life if you did not make such a hateful and bigoted statement. But, speaking charitably, it is sad that you have not been blessed with the grace to recognize His Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia) Yes I am convinced that Jesus is God, the creator of all things and the Savior of the world. I am convinced that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Him and since it is and was the only Church that it is the Church that He prayed we all be one within at the garden of Gethsemane before His crucifixion and resurrection.
(Truthsayer) I hope that you'll have a time in your life when you realize that you need to read the New Testament through the eyes of faith and not through the sordid lens of the RCC.
(Cristoiglesia) I was a Protestant for fifty years before becoming Catholic. I always read the Bible open and desiring to learn instead of the way yourself and most Protestants read the Bible which is to support their man-made doctrines and to ignore all scriptures that are contrary to their man-made heresies. Reading the Bible as I have always done in a humble scholarly way is what brought me to Catholicism.
(Truthsayer) Let me summarize some basic things that you need to know.
(Cristoiglesia) OK
(Truthsayer) 1. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone, (Ephesians 2:8-10), "not of works, lest any man should boast." When a person is saved they are automatically added to the Church which is HIS body.. (It doesn't belong to the RCC or any other denomination.)
(Cristioiglesia) I think there are things you should know and I am pleased to address this common Protestant heresy of “faith alone”. The only place that “faith alone” is mentioned in scriptures is when it is condemned in the book of James. Martin Luther the author of “faith alone” regretted this doctrine later on in life and questioned his salvation because of introducing this error into Christianity. This Protestant doctrine is truly a doctrine from hell.
Many people, like yourself, seem to think that all they have to do is in a moment of emotion and/or reason ascent to recognition of Christ being their savior and their salvation to eternal life is assured. From that point forward it makes no difference that their life is changed and they will live differently. The only thing that has changed is that evil in their lives as displayed outwardly and lived inwardly no longer has an effect on their eternity as their one act of acceptance has made them immune to the actions of their sins at judgment and obligated God to accept them into His presence. Some will go so far as to say that one's sinfulness and evil has nothing to do with the value of their souls before God because even the most evil, sinful soul is covered rather than purified by Christ's atonement. It would appear that these people are saying that Christ's atonement is a method or sinister plan to allow sin in the presence of God draped in a covering of righteousness to conceal the evil within and that salvation is assured regardless of the state of their souls.
The question comes immediately to mind, how one can come to such conclusions considering the context of the body of Scriptures that contradict such a notion. I believe that it all comes down to one verse which is unique in all of Scripture that depicts Christ as a personal savior dependent on one’s inner conviction. All other Scriptures depict only salvation through the Church saying that He died for us, meaning the Church. St. Paul certainly taught this as he practiced seeking salvation through Christ's Church.
Here is the Scripture which through the eisegesis of some causes misunderstanding:
(Gal 2:20 DRB) And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me.
Some take this verse to mean that one need only repent and turn to God with the heart of a little child and their salvation is assured.
(Joh 3:3 DRB) Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Catholics see salvation quite differently than those who think that covering one’s sins is enough to enter the presence of God. We recognize that Christ has redeemed us on the cross and unlocked the gates of heaven and that redemption is not the same as salvation but instead a prelude to salvation. In order for us to receive salvation we must cooperate by being spiritually alive. Our soul cannot be in a natural state when we die to receive salvation and no covering of its sinfulness will be enough to hide what is beneath, a soul without the sanctifying grace cannot enter heaven. If, at death, the soul is sanctified then there is no doubt of heaven even if that soul needs to go to the purification of purgatory. Only souls that are indeed good and pleasing to God by being full of His sanctifying grace will merit heaven. It is the state of the soul at death that merits heaven and this fact emphasizes why we need God’s ongoing grace in our lives to persevere to the end.
(Truthsayer) 2. After a person is saved they should be baptized by immersion. This is the ONLY believers baptism mentioned in the New Testament. (Acts 2)
(Cristoiglesia) Let me say that I have no problem with immersion Baptism but I do have a problem with those people that say it is the only valid method of Baptism.
The Bible is totally silent as to the method to be used in Baptism. Furthermore there is no example in Scriptures of anyone being Baptized by immersion or any other methodology. The Bible is totally silent as to how it is to be done. Only the “Didache” gives any description as to the Method and form of Baptism. The Didache says the following:
The Didache was written around A.D. 70 and, though not inspired, is a strong witness to the sacramental practice of Christians in the apostolic age. In its seventh chapter, the Didache reads, "Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." These instructions were composed either while some of the apostles and disciples were still alive or during the next generation of Christians, and they represent an already established custom.
So clearly immersion only Baptism is not at all biblical.
(Truthsayer) 3. After a person is saved and baptized they are expected to continue steadfastly in the "Apostles doctrine", fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer. (Acts 2) They are to be gathered together according to Mathew 18:20.
(Cristoiglesia) You are very confused about a couple of things which causes you to ere. First of all a person is not saved until their earthly death. If their soul is full of salvific grace they are saved. When one is baptized they come into the familial relationship with God and are given the gift of the Holy Spirit that leads them to grace.
Now let us examine the scripture verses you provided:
Matthew 18:15-20 (King James Version)
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here Matthew is recording the teaching of Jesus to the disciples who were to become the foundation of the Church. In the first century the Church was defined by the disciples after the resurrection as those who gather around the Bishops. We know this because this is the definition recorded by the disciple of St. John and St. Peter who was the third bishop of Antioch named St. Ignatius. He wrote in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Chapter 9. Honour the bishop
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
So, the fellowship being spoken here is defined as the Church and the Church is defined as those who follow the Bishops. Those that have separated themselves from the Church like you are not a part of the communion spoken of here but are instead outside of unity with the Church which describes the Protestants like yourself. The scriptures you referred to say that we are to treat you like the heathen and the publicans because you refuse out of your carnal pride to hear the Church. So, you are correct that it speaks of fellowship but you fail to recognize that you as a Protestant are outside of that fellowship according to the scriptures you provided as reference.
(Truthsayer) The "breaking of bread" mentioned in Acts 2 is simple obedience to the Savior when He instituted a "remembrance of Himself" when He was alone with His disciples in the upper room on the same night that He was betrayed... By the way.. In connection with this, Christ was not introducing cannibalism... The bread and cup were symbolic of His body and blood.
(Cristoiglesia) For the Christian today it is a great honor to be called a cannibal because this is the label we received by those that persecuted us in the first few centuries of the Church. It was a pejorative label given to us by the Jews and Pagans that hated us. Thank you for calling us the same hate filled name as they called those who were the disciples of our Lord that were martyred for their faith. But we are not worthy as our sacrifice is not as great as theirs.
The Israelites continued to remember their bitter bondage while in Egypt. Jesus instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice as a reminder of the sorrow and brokenness of humanity lost in sin before His atoning sacrifice. The Israelites before and the Jewish people today continue to recall that God brought them out of bondage and the miracle of the Passover.
The ongoing celebration of the Mass is very different from the Passover celebration in that it is not a recalling of a one time event but a continuing sacrifice with Jesus as the priest and the victim. We are not celebrating this to recall what we have read or been told but are really and actually at the foot of the Cross with the blessed mother and St. John. In the Bible it says that we are to do this in “remembrance” as it is often translated into English but that same word in Koine Greek is actually “anamnesis” which has no English equivalent. “Remembrance” is a rather crude and awkward approximation of the true meaning of “anamnesis” which denotes a miracle. Recalling something to memory is hardly a divine miracle. So, there is clearly a difference between the ongoing practice of recalling the bondage of Egypt and the command of our Lord to “do this in “anamnesis” of me which we do in the one miracle of the Eucharist. Jesus provides the great feast of His actual Body and Blood in exactly the form, time and place at the foot of the cross as He said. It is completely recognizing the fact that we discern His Body and Blood in the Spirit of faith as He said and not by our human carnal reason as Protestants struggle to do.
In John 6:51 Jesus says that He is the bread from heaven. He is not talking of a huge loaf of bread which all believers must partake but makes it clear that it is His actual flesh that brings life eternal and not a recalling or remembrance of His flesh. Obviously this is a miracle not unlike the miracle of His feeding the multitudes before. The disciples would have believed because they had just witnessed a similar miracle. Also His relating this feast to manna (John 6:49-50) illustrates its temporary sustenance and contrasts it to the enduring nature bestowed by eating His flesh.
“51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Surely if this was a remembrance or recalling only it would necessitate a killing of another lamb which would not be the self same sacrifice but another symbolic of the first whose blood spread on the entrance to their homes with the hyssop branch saved their first born sons. It was this Old Covenant celebration that necessitated the ongoing sacrifice of the temple which was the only place that the lambs could be slaughtered because only the priests could kill the Passover lamb in remembrance of the real and original sacrifice. It is significant that St. John records, since He was the only one of the Gospel writers present that, Jesus was killed at the exact same time of the representative Paschal lambs at the Temple. This indicated a new ongoing sacrifice once for all times of the New Covenant.
The Eucharist is not a recalling of Calvary. It is not a remembrance of Calvary. Instead, it is the one, same sacrifice with the real Christ as the victim and priest that transcends time and place as the heavenly feast of His real flesh which is the food to endure to final salvation for all mankind. At every Mass we eat the same flesh of our Lord that He served at the last supper and we who abide in Him will continue for all times.
John6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
(Truthsayer) I know that you've rejected these truths many times.. That's your choice.. God doesn't force anyone to believe Him against their will. "A man convinced against his will, Is of the same opinion still."
(Cristoiglesia) I have never rejected truth but instead I have always pursued the truth. When I was an anti-Catholic like you the pursuit of the truth is what brought me to the Catholic Church kicking and screaming. I never wanted to be Catholic but the Holy Spirit never stopped leading me to the Church. Those who come to the Church founded by Jesus and His disciples are blessed abundantly, especially so when pulled away from the darkness and desert of truth and practice in the Protestant sects to the fullness of truth and practice of the Catholic Church. It is you who Protests His Church and not I.
(Truthsayer) One last thought, you claim to have been trained in a Baptist theological seminary.. This only proves one thing.. Not everyone that attends a Baptist Seminary is saved. If you had been, you may still have left the Baptists but you wouldn't have joined up with the Roman Catholic Church.
(Cristoiglesia) Praise God He has not saved me yet but by His grace I will be saved upon my death. No one who attends a Baptist seminary is saved but they all have the hope of salvation which is the state of all mankind. Many Baptists have joined the Catholic Church. In fact entire congregations of Baptists have come home to Christ’s Church. Christ’s Church is superior to anything that man will ever create. Christ built it on the firmest of foundations. Using construction vernacular Jesus said that He is the cornerstone of the Church and that the 12 disciples are the foundation stones. That foundation of rock is built upon through apostolic succession. The people who are blessed to receive the call to His Church gather around the teaching authority of these original disciples given to them by Christ Himself.
All Protestant churches are built upon foundations of sand that shift and destroy those sects through schisms perpetrated by the pride of men. Some men not blessed with discernment by the Holy Spirit actually delude themselves into believing that they can create and found a Church that has more authority and veracity than the Church founded by our Lord. Such delusion is the work of Satan who labors to keep the fullness of truth from mankind lest they be faithful and obedient to our Lord through His Church or the fellowship we discussed earlier in Mat 18: 15-20.
(Truthsayer)I have been spending much time studying Paul's epistle to the Galations.. It occurs to me that many of the false doctrines and pagan rituals embraced by the RCC must have begun to raise their ugly heads in the churches in Galatia and this is one of the primary reasons that Paul was writing them this letter of correction.
(Cristoiglesia) There is one huge problem with your conclusion. There are no Pagan rituals or false doctrines in the Catholic Church. Jesus said that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. He sad that it would endure for all times and it is recorded in the scriptures, that the Church founded by our Lord and led to all truth by the Paraclete is the “pillar and foundation of the truth.” Does it not bother you that in making your statements and coming to your prejudiced erroneous conclusions that you , in doing so, are calling our Lord at best and incompetent in founding His Church or at worst a liar when He gave His promises to mankind about His Church? How does that build one’s faith? It does not but is just the kind of rhetoric we would expect from the father of lies.
(Truthsayer)
P.S. I would go as far as to suggest that being "in Christ" and "being in the RCC" are mutually exclusive concepts.
(Cristoiglesia) I would be surprised at this time in your life if you did not make such a hateful and bigoted statement. But, speaking charitably, it is sad that you have not been blessed with the grace to recognize His Church. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
16 April, 2010
Authority discussed with Jim the Baptist
(Cristoiglesia) Why not use the entire Word of God instead of just the written Word"
(Jim the Baptist) 2Timothy 3:16-17 says that the written Word is good enough for doctrine.
(Cristoiglesia) It is very difficult for one to understand scripture if they add to it what they want it to say. One should go to scriptures instead to learn. St. Paul is not saying that the scriptures are good enough for doctrine. He is saying that they are good enough to be used for teaching. That is exactly what the Church says the purposes are for the scriptures. It is one of the reasons that certain books were chosen by the Church to be scriptures. It is not saying that they are sufficient for doctrine although they do teach doctrine.
(Jim the Baptist) How did the Berean church in Acts 17 know who had truth and who didn't? "They searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so"
(Cristoiglesia) Again you are scriptures match your prejudice and to fit your heretical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Bereans were being taught orally and not with the written Word. What this proves is that the written Word was not in conflict with the oral teaching.
(Jim the Baptist) The church and the truth is determined by the Word of God. There are many oral traditions and many churches, but only the Word of God determines who and what is truth.
(Cristoiglesia) No, the written Word of God for Christians was determined by the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the authority given by Christ to His Church. Now the tradition of Sola Scriptura followed by Protestants does act as the regula fidei but this is a false teaching and a false doctrine. It is instead the Church founded by Christ that is the regula fidei. There is only one Church but many sects claiming to be the church. They are instead in protest of Christ’s Church and outside of God’s will of unity. Jesus prayed that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one. There just is not any biblical support for your claim and it is denied by His Church.
(Cristoiglesia) your sect has no authority to interpret that Word.
(Jim the Baptist) No one has the right to privately interpret the Bible! Not the Catholic church and not my church. It is the obedience to the leadership of the Holy Spirit within the person along with Scripture that gives a person the and the authority to interpret the Bible.
(Cristoiglesia) No, your position is not biblical. The Church was given the authority for teaching by Jesus. The Bible was written by the Church to be studied and taught within the community of the Church. There was only one Church and still is only one that was spoken of in Scriptures and that is the Catholic Church. There would not be another Christian Church for 1500 years and 1850 years before your sect appeared. According to scriptures the Holy Spirit dwells within the person after being received at Baptism. But, it is the familial relationship within the Church that all truth is found. Sola Scriptura has proved that man left to his own discernment cannot agree on the teaching of Scripture. Every Baptist church has a different interpretation of the scriptures and each person in the pew thinks that his interpretation is correct. That is the seed of division and of schism that wounds the Corpus Christi because Sola Scriptura is not the teaching of our Lord but it is from an evil source whom is the enemy of God and the faithful. Jesus never told anyone to write scriptures but the Church took it on themselves to give a written record of the formation of the Church and how that formation was instituted by Jesus and the disciples.
The Protestants came along 16 centuries later and realized they had no authority to lead them as they had rejected the apostolic leadership provided by Jesus for His enduring Church. They were forced to appeal to a source lacking that divine leadership or authority given by Jesus. We know now that the fruits of Protestantism are exponentially increasing schisms and wounds in the Corpus Christi. The evidence is that Satan is the author of this division made possible and fueled by the heresy of Sola Scriptura.
(Jim the Baptist) And by the way, the Catholic church is just another sect that came along in 312 AD.
(Cristoiglesia) 312 AD was the Edict of Milan which was signed by the Roman emperor Constantine. The Edict for the first time gave freedom of religion to the Empire. No longer would the Christians be persecuted but could worship freely among the Pagan religions of Rome. Christians came out of the Catacombs and built churches in which to worship. The Church had been around since Pentecost and was not created because of this religious freedom but now enjoyed the ability to worship openly and without threat. Your statement that he Church was created in 312 AD is ridiculous and without any historical or patristic evidence to support such a claim. It is just a prejudiced, wishful and imaginative supposition without any proof.
(Cristoiglesia) who has the authority
(Jim the Baptist) There is the problem. You guys want control! You want to stand between the common layperson and the Bible, Christ, the Holy Spirit and God.
(Cristoiglesia) It is not that we want control but that we were given the responsibility and the authority to shepherd God’s flocks. There are times when we stand between our flocks and evil in the form of heresy to protect them from false teaching. It is because of this leadership and authority under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that ensures that the Church will endure for all times and remain for those times free from apostasy. The Bible can be used for evil by Satan to spread heresy. We have seen many instances of this in the history of the Church where the Church found it necessary to protect the Word from heresy. Where the Church has stood is between the truth and lies and protected the Word. Protestants are not the only ones that have used the scriptures to spread heresy and convince people that the heresy is truth. Satan know and can quote scriptures as well as the best scholar and twist them to his goals to separate mankind from the truth. Only the Church has Christ’s promise that it is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. It is in the Church alone where all of God’s Word is taught in all its divine veracity.
(Jim the Baptist) You put the pope, Mary, priest and idols between the common lay person and Christ. THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL!!
(Cristoiglesia) I have no idea what you are alleging when you say that the Pope interferes with a personal relationship with Christ. If anything, the leadership structure of the Church enhances the relationship of the faithful and God.
The Church teaches that the blessed mother always points to her Son unselfishly as the source of our salvation and our hope.
The priest is chosen by God to serve the people in persona Christi and to deliver the grace necessary to endure to final salvation and to guide the faithful to obedience and sanctity.
There are no idols in the Catholic Church. In fact the Church teaches against idolatry in any fashion. Catholic Christians are forbidden to worship anyone or anything but God . The last place one would find idols is in the Catholic Church or God’s own house where He lives in our neighborhoods in the Tabernacle.
All of these things are biblical.
(Jim the Baptist) The poor Catholic person is robbed of a personal relationship with Christ and His Word!
(Cristoiglesia) But Jesus did not teach of a personal relationship but a corporeal relationship with God as a Church and not as individuals. But we have the most personal relationship possible with our Lord by sharing the great feast of unity and eating the truly real and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior. It is your faith in man-made doctrines that has robed you of this most personal of relationships with our Lord.
(Jim the Baptist) Your sect makes me sick! You bury the message in Latin, you have people confessing to priest and you don't allow the lay person to have any authority in the Church Christ started. And by the way, it was a Baptist church. Not by name but by practice and doctrine.
(Cristoiglesia) Latin has always been the language of the Church. For the first 1500 years of the Church it was the language of scholars. If a person could read and write in the Western World and most of the East He read and write Latin. Latin is the vernacular and universal language of the Church. No message was buried in Latin but instead proclaimed for all to understand. Once before Vatican II a Catholic could go to any Mass in the world and understand the teaching of the Bible. Now that word is divided into many different languages that is almost like the Tower of Babel in its confusion for those not familiar with the vernacular where once there was a unity of language among all Christians. You cannot blame confessions to priests on the Church as we are just being obedient to Christ’s instructions to forgive or retain sins and bind or loose in persona Christi. La y people have a great deal of authority in the Church which is predominantly to preach the Word of God and evangelize those separated from Christ’s Church. The Baptist Church is nothing like the first century Church in practice, faith or apostolic leadership that still leads the Church today. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Jim the Baptist) 2Timothy 3:16-17 says that the written Word is good enough for doctrine.
(Cristoiglesia) It is very difficult for one to understand scripture if they add to it what they want it to say. One should go to scriptures instead to learn. St. Paul is not saying that the scriptures are good enough for doctrine. He is saying that they are good enough to be used for teaching. That is exactly what the Church says the purposes are for the scriptures. It is one of the reasons that certain books were chosen by the Church to be scriptures. It is not saying that they are sufficient for doctrine although they do teach doctrine.
(Jim the Baptist) How did the Berean church in Acts 17 know who had truth and who didn't? "They searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so"
(Cristoiglesia) Again you are scriptures match your prejudice and to fit your heretical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Bereans were being taught orally and not with the written Word. What this proves is that the written Word was not in conflict with the oral teaching.
(Jim the Baptist) The church and the truth is determined by the Word of God. There are many oral traditions and many churches, but only the Word of God determines who and what is truth.
(Cristoiglesia) No, the written Word of God for Christians was determined by the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the authority given by Christ to His Church. Now the tradition of Sola Scriptura followed by Protestants does act as the regula fidei but this is a false teaching and a false doctrine. It is instead the Church founded by Christ that is the regula fidei. There is only one Church but many sects claiming to be the church. They are instead in protest of Christ’s Church and outside of God’s will of unity. Jesus prayed that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one. There just is not any biblical support for your claim and it is denied by His Church.
(Cristoiglesia) your sect has no authority to interpret that Word.
(Jim the Baptist) No one has the right to privately interpret the Bible! Not the Catholic church and not my church. It is the obedience to the leadership of the Holy Spirit within the person along with Scripture that gives a person the and the authority to interpret the Bible.
(Cristoiglesia) No, your position is not biblical. The Church was given the authority for teaching by Jesus. The Bible was written by the Church to be studied and taught within the community of the Church. There was only one Church and still is only one that was spoken of in Scriptures and that is the Catholic Church. There would not be another Christian Church for 1500 years and 1850 years before your sect appeared. According to scriptures the Holy Spirit dwells within the person after being received at Baptism. But, it is the familial relationship within the Church that all truth is found. Sola Scriptura has proved that man left to his own discernment cannot agree on the teaching of Scripture. Every Baptist church has a different interpretation of the scriptures and each person in the pew thinks that his interpretation is correct. That is the seed of division and of schism that wounds the Corpus Christi because Sola Scriptura is not the teaching of our Lord but it is from an evil source whom is the enemy of God and the faithful. Jesus never told anyone to write scriptures but the Church took it on themselves to give a written record of the formation of the Church and how that formation was instituted by Jesus and the disciples.
The Protestants came along 16 centuries later and realized they had no authority to lead them as they had rejected the apostolic leadership provided by Jesus for His enduring Church. They were forced to appeal to a source lacking that divine leadership or authority given by Jesus. We know now that the fruits of Protestantism are exponentially increasing schisms and wounds in the Corpus Christi. The evidence is that Satan is the author of this division made possible and fueled by the heresy of Sola Scriptura.
(Jim the Baptist) And by the way, the Catholic church is just another sect that came along in 312 AD.
(Cristoiglesia) 312 AD was the Edict of Milan which was signed by the Roman emperor Constantine. The Edict for the first time gave freedom of religion to the Empire. No longer would the Christians be persecuted but could worship freely among the Pagan religions of Rome. Christians came out of the Catacombs and built churches in which to worship. The Church had been around since Pentecost and was not created because of this religious freedom but now enjoyed the ability to worship openly and without threat. Your statement that he Church was created in 312 AD is ridiculous and without any historical or patristic evidence to support such a claim. It is just a prejudiced, wishful and imaginative supposition without any proof.
(Cristoiglesia) who has the authority
(Jim the Baptist) There is the problem. You guys want control! You want to stand between the common layperson and the Bible, Christ, the Holy Spirit and God.
(Cristoiglesia) It is not that we want control but that we were given the responsibility and the authority to shepherd God’s flocks. There are times when we stand between our flocks and evil in the form of heresy to protect them from false teaching. It is because of this leadership and authority under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that ensures that the Church will endure for all times and remain for those times free from apostasy. The Bible can be used for evil by Satan to spread heresy. We have seen many instances of this in the history of the Church where the Church found it necessary to protect the Word from heresy. Where the Church has stood is between the truth and lies and protected the Word. Protestants are not the only ones that have used the scriptures to spread heresy and convince people that the heresy is truth. Satan know and can quote scriptures as well as the best scholar and twist them to his goals to separate mankind from the truth. Only the Church has Christ’s promise that it is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. It is in the Church alone where all of God’s Word is taught in all its divine veracity.
(Jim the Baptist) You put the pope, Mary, priest and idols between the common lay person and Christ. THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL!!
(Cristoiglesia) I have no idea what you are alleging when you say that the Pope interferes with a personal relationship with Christ. If anything, the leadership structure of the Church enhances the relationship of the faithful and God.
The Church teaches that the blessed mother always points to her Son unselfishly as the source of our salvation and our hope.
The priest is chosen by God to serve the people in persona Christi and to deliver the grace necessary to endure to final salvation and to guide the faithful to obedience and sanctity.
There are no idols in the Catholic Church. In fact the Church teaches against idolatry in any fashion. Catholic Christians are forbidden to worship anyone or anything but God . The last place one would find idols is in the Catholic Church or God’s own house where He lives in our neighborhoods in the Tabernacle.
All of these things are biblical.
(Jim the Baptist) The poor Catholic person is robbed of a personal relationship with Christ and His Word!
(Cristoiglesia) But Jesus did not teach of a personal relationship but a corporeal relationship with God as a Church and not as individuals. But we have the most personal relationship possible with our Lord by sharing the great feast of unity and eating the truly real and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior. It is your faith in man-made doctrines that has robed you of this most personal of relationships with our Lord.
(Jim the Baptist) Your sect makes me sick! You bury the message in Latin, you have people confessing to priest and you don't allow the lay person to have any authority in the Church Christ started. And by the way, it was a Baptist church. Not by name but by practice and doctrine.
(Cristoiglesia) Latin has always been the language of the Church. For the first 1500 years of the Church it was the language of scholars. If a person could read and write in the Western World and most of the East He read and write Latin. Latin is the vernacular and universal language of the Church. No message was buried in Latin but instead proclaimed for all to understand. Once before Vatican II a Catholic could go to any Mass in the world and understand the teaching of the Bible. Now that word is divided into many different languages that is almost like the Tower of Babel in its confusion for those not familiar with the vernacular where once there was a unity of language among all Christians. You cannot blame confessions to priests on the Church as we are just being obedient to Christ’s instructions to forgive or retain sins and bind or loose in persona Christi. La y people have a great deal of authority in the Church which is predominantly to preach the Word of God and evangelize those separated from Christ’s Church. The Baptist Church is nothing like the first century Church in practice, faith or apostolic leadership that still leads the Church today. God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
11 April, 2010
"Truthsayer" criticising the Church
(Truthsayer) You contend that the RCC's position is that the RCC is the "one true church" and that Peter was the first "Pope".
(Cristoiglesia )That is the truth. Biblical, historical and patristic evidence support this fact. There is no evidence to the contrary.
(Truthsayer) (The fact is, that the RCC is only one of several Churches that claims to be the first and only true Church.)
(Cristoiglesia) OK, but as I said before, all evidence points to the fact that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church. There was and is no other.
(Truthsayer) If this is true, why is there no mention of the RCC in the Bible?
(Cristoiglesia) Wrong, the entire New Testament is written by Catholic Christians and is about the Catholic Church. This is especially clear in the book of Acts.
(Truthsayer) Why no mention of Peter as the "Pope" of the Church on the day of Pentecost when the Church was born?
(Cristoiglesia) Huh? Peter gave the sermon at Pentecost. (See Acts 2:14-41)
(Truthsayer) Why no mention of Peter as the head of the Church in Peter's epistles or any other epistles written to the churches or in the general epistles?
(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps the authors did not see any reason to mention this as Jesus had already given the authority to St. Peter to lead the Church. It would have just been redundant for this to be mentioned in the epistles as everyone already knew who the first among equals was and the authority he had been given by Jesus.
(Truthsayer) Why no mention in the Bible of the second Pope after Peter's execution ?
(Cristoiglesia) Why would there be as the Church was well aware of its leadership?
(Truthsayer) Why is it that nowhere in the New Testament do we find the “one true church” doing any of the following:
*Praying to Mary, *Praying to the saints venerating Mary
(Cristoiglesia) First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God. Why would a Christian not venerate the mother of our Lord?
(Truthsayer) *Submitting to a pope,
(Cristoiglesia) One cannot deny that the foundation of all Christianity through His Church is based on Christ’s words to St. Peter before the disciples. There is no doubt from the construction vernacular that Jesus was instructing them to build a Church with them as the foundation stones and Himself as the cornerstone. He built no other Church as no other was needed because the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic, Church derives its perfection from Him through His promises. He prayed that we all be one within this Church. He said this Church would endure until the Parousia. He said of this Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He said that He would be with this Church until the end of time. The Scriptures confirms these promises saying that this Church is the “pillar and ground of the truth”. He did not plan for the Church to be without leadership after the apostles died but provided that they choose successors to replace them in the enduring Church. This is confirmed it the book of Acts.
(Truthsayer) *Baptizing an infant,
(Cristoiglesia) The Church from the beginning has practiced the Baptism of children. The reasons are very clear in Scriptures.
(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
To the first Christians that baptized their children it was understood by them that Baptism is the doorway to salvation. St. Peter said the following:
(1Pe 3:18 DRB) Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
(1Pe 3:19 DRB) In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
(1Pe 3:20 DRB) Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The effects of Baptism are the regeneration of the soul (born again), eradication of original sin and actual sin and its effects on the soul. A baby does not have actual sin but does have original sin. Through Baptism we become members of the Body of Christ, of which St. Paul says the following:
(2Co 5:17 DRB) If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
(1Co 3:16 DRB) Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Baptism is the sacramental doorway into the Church:
(Mat 28:19 DRB) Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
The Bible teaches that everyone should be Baptized:
(Act 2:38 DRB) But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:39 DRB) For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.
(Act 2:40 DRB) And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.
(Act 2:41 DRB) They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:42 DRB) And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.
St. Peter at Pentecost said to the adults to repent but did not exclude children from Baptism, instead saying that everyone should receive the Holy Spirit not just those of age to repent. He said it is “to you and to your children”. That is why people in the early Church brought even their smallest children to be baptized as do parents today.
There is no necessity to repent for children to be Baptized according to Scriptures. The command to repent is not binding on infants nor to mentally incapacitated people as the intent of repentance is not to exclude those incapable of such an act. They are not to be condemned because of their lack of ability to repent. Certainly the same understanding should apply as we understand St. Paul’s statement in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 where St. Paul says that someone who does not work does not eat. Are we to deny children or the mentally handicapped sustenance? Certainly they should not, nor should they be denied eternal life.
The Old Testament required circumcision at eight days old as a sign of the covenant of God. The child had no knowledge of why he was being circumcised yet the parents brought the son to the synagogue to have this done. God accepted the child into the covenant for what the parents had done just as He accepts the Baptism when the parents present their child to be baptized. The Scriptures tell us clearly that Baptism replaced circumcision:
(Col 2:11 DRB) In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ.
(Col 2:12 DRB) Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.
We must remember what Christ said when there were those who attempted to forbid the children from coming to Him:
(Luk 18:15 DRB) And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them.
Luk 18:16 DRB) But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
(Luk 18:17 DRB) Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child shall not enter into it.
Can there be any doubt by a proper understanding of Scripture that children should be baptized? Certainly a complete understanding of the Scriptural verses shows clearly that children have the same need for Baptism as adults and that they should not be held away from this act by their parents or the Church lest they put the child in grave danger and the parents and/or Church are disobedient to the spirit of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.
(Truthsayer) *Observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments,
(Cristoiglesia) Jesus said both Baptism and the Blessed Sacrament are necessary for salvation.
Baptism:
John 3:3-5 (King James Version)
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Blessed Sacrament
John 6:53-59 (King James Version)
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
(Truthsayer) *Passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
(Cristoiglesia) All authority was given to the apostles from Christ and at least some of that special authority is recorded in Scripture and is certainly attested to by the ante Nicene fathers.
There is no doubt that the apostles knew that their ministry would survive their death as it was needed to be a permanent living presence until the Parousia.
(Mat 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Knowing their responsibility in preserving the teaching of Christ they ordained successors giving them the gift of the Spirit with Episcopal consecration:
(Act 1:8 DRB) But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.
(Act 2:4 DRB) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
(Joh 20:22 DRB) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
(Joh 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(2Ti 1:7 DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love and of sobriety.
There is no doubt that “Apostolic Succession” is a historical fact. Scriptures, as well show clearly that Christ chose these apostles and commissioned them to establish and continue his work with his authority and they ordained successors. It is Apostolic Succession that is the link connecting the Church to Christ. It is the authority from Christ of the Episcopacy that brings so many knowledgeable people to return to the Catholic faith as I am a witness.
We see those who were ordained in apostolic succession fulfilling their ministry:
(Act 20:28 DRB) Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(1Th 1:1 DRB) Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians: in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th 1:2 DRB) Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all: making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,
(1Th 1:3 DRB) Being mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father.
(1Th 1:4 DRB) Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:
(1Th 1:5 DRB) For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
(1Th 1:6 DRB) And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(1Th 1:7 DRB) So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1Th 1:8 DRB) For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.
(1Th 1:9 DRB) For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you: and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.
(1Th 1:10 DRB) And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(Tit 1:5 DRB) For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:
(Tit 1:6 DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.
(Tit 1:7 DRB) For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, nor given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre:
(Tit 1:8 DRB) But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent:
(Tit 1:9 DRB) Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
St. Paul goes on to instruct St. Timothy as to who is a qualified candidate for ordination:
(1Ti 3:1 DRB) A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
(1Ti 3:2 DRB) It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,
(1Ti 3:3 DRB) Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but
(1Ti 3:4 DRB) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.
(1Ti 3:5 DRB) But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
(1Ti 3:6 DRB) Not a neophyte: lest, being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil.
(1Ti 3:7 DRB) Moreover, he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
(1Ti 5:22 DRB) Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.
We also find in the Scriptures that those in Apostolic Succession had particular and varied duties:
(1Co 12:27 DRB) Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
(1Co 12:28 DRB) And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
(1Co 12:29 DRB) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
(Eph 4:11 DRB) And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
(Eph 4:12 DRB) For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
We are further reminded of the foundation of the Church:
(Eph 2:19 DRB) Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God,
(Eph 2:20 DRB) Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
This is only some of the Scriptures speaking of apostolic succession and the duties, need and authority of the office.
(Truthsayer) All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church?
A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.
(Cristoiglesia) Obviously, using Scripture your claims are false that the Church did not practice these things. As you can clearly see everything you accused the Church of teaching that is according to you unbiblical is clearly supported in Scripture. Obviously You have missed a great deal of the New Testament teaching.
(Truthsayer) Continued after you respond to these points.
I look forward to your response.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
(Cristoiglesia )That is the truth. Biblical, historical and patristic evidence support this fact. There is no evidence to the contrary.
(Truthsayer) (The fact is, that the RCC is only one of several Churches that claims to be the first and only true Church.)
(Cristoiglesia) OK, but as I said before, all evidence points to the fact that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church. There was and is no other.
(Truthsayer) If this is true, why is there no mention of the RCC in the Bible?
(Cristoiglesia) Wrong, the entire New Testament is written by Catholic Christians and is about the Catholic Church. This is especially clear in the book of Acts.
(Truthsayer) Why no mention of Peter as the "Pope" of the Church on the day of Pentecost when the Church was born?
(Cristoiglesia) Huh? Peter gave the sermon at Pentecost. (See Acts 2:14-41)
(Truthsayer) Why no mention of Peter as the head of the Church in Peter's epistles or any other epistles written to the churches or in the general epistles?
(Cristoiglesia) Perhaps the authors did not see any reason to mention this as Jesus had already given the authority to St. Peter to lead the Church. It would have just been redundant for this to be mentioned in the epistles as everyone already knew who the first among equals was and the authority he had been given by Jesus.
(Truthsayer) Why no mention in the Bible of the second Pope after Peter's execution ?
(Cristoiglesia) Why would there be as the Church was well aware of its leadership?
(Truthsayer) Why is it that nowhere in the New Testament do we find the “one true church” doing any of the following:
*Praying to Mary, *Praying to the saints venerating Mary
(Cristoiglesia) First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God. Why would a Christian not venerate the mother of our Lord?
(Truthsayer) *Submitting to a pope,
(Cristoiglesia) One cannot deny that the foundation of all Christianity through His Church is based on Christ’s words to St. Peter before the disciples. There is no doubt from the construction vernacular that Jesus was instructing them to build a Church with them as the foundation stones and Himself as the cornerstone. He built no other Church as no other was needed because the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic, Church derives its perfection from Him through His promises. He prayed that we all be one within this Church. He said this Church would endure until the Parousia. He said of this Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He said that He would be with this Church until the end of time. The Scriptures confirms these promises saying that this Church is the “pillar and ground of the truth”. He did not plan for the Church to be without leadership after the apostles died but provided that they choose successors to replace them in the enduring Church. This is confirmed it the book of Acts.
(Truthsayer) *Baptizing an infant,
(Cristoiglesia) The Church from the beginning has practiced the Baptism of children. The reasons are very clear in Scriptures.
(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
To the first Christians that baptized their children it was understood by them that Baptism is the doorway to salvation. St. Peter said the following:
(1Pe 3:18 DRB) Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
(1Pe 3:19 DRB) In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
(1Pe 3:20 DRB) Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The effects of Baptism are the regeneration of the soul (born again), eradication of original sin and actual sin and its effects on the soul. A baby does not have actual sin but does have original sin. Through Baptism we become members of the Body of Christ, of which St. Paul says the following:
(2Co 5:17 DRB) If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
(1Co 3:16 DRB) Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Baptism is the sacramental doorway into the Church:
(Mat 28:19 DRB) Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
The Bible teaches that everyone should be Baptized:
(Act 2:38 DRB) But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:39 DRB) For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.
(Act 2:40 DRB) And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.
(Act 2:41 DRB) They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:42 DRB) And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.
St. Peter at Pentecost said to the adults to repent but did not exclude children from Baptism, instead saying that everyone should receive the Holy Spirit not just those of age to repent. He said it is “to you and to your children”. That is why people in the early Church brought even their smallest children to be baptized as do parents today.
There is no necessity to repent for children to be Baptized according to Scriptures. The command to repent is not binding on infants nor to mentally incapacitated people as the intent of repentance is not to exclude those incapable of such an act. They are not to be condemned because of their lack of ability to repent. Certainly the same understanding should apply as we understand St. Paul’s statement in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 where St. Paul says that someone who does not work does not eat. Are we to deny children or the mentally handicapped sustenance? Certainly they should not, nor should they be denied eternal life.
The Old Testament required circumcision at eight days old as a sign of the covenant of God. The child had no knowledge of why he was being circumcised yet the parents brought the son to the synagogue to have this done. God accepted the child into the covenant for what the parents had done just as He accepts the Baptism when the parents present their child to be baptized. The Scriptures tell us clearly that Baptism replaced circumcision:
(Col 2:11 DRB) In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ.
(Col 2:12 DRB) Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.
We must remember what Christ said when there were those who attempted to forbid the children from coming to Him:
(Luk 18:15 DRB) And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them.
Luk 18:16 DRB) But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
(Luk 18:17 DRB) Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child shall not enter into it.
Can there be any doubt by a proper understanding of Scripture that children should be baptized? Certainly a complete understanding of the Scriptural verses shows clearly that children have the same need for Baptism as adults and that they should not be held away from this act by their parents or the Church lest they put the child in grave danger and the parents and/or Church are disobedient to the spirit of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.
(Truthsayer) *Observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments,
(Cristoiglesia) Jesus said both Baptism and the Blessed Sacrament are necessary for salvation.
Baptism:
John 3:3-5 (King James Version)
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Blessed Sacrament
John 6:53-59 (King James Version)
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
(Truthsayer) *Passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
(Cristoiglesia) All authority was given to the apostles from Christ and at least some of that special authority is recorded in Scripture and is certainly attested to by the ante Nicene fathers.
There is no doubt that the apostles knew that their ministry would survive their death as it was needed to be a permanent living presence until the Parousia.
(Mat 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Knowing their responsibility in preserving the teaching of Christ they ordained successors giving them the gift of the Spirit with Episcopal consecration:
(Act 1:8 DRB) But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.
(Act 2:4 DRB) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
(Joh 20:22 DRB) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
(Joh 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(2Ti 1:7 DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love and of sobriety.
There is no doubt that “Apostolic Succession” is a historical fact. Scriptures, as well show clearly that Christ chose these apostles and commissioned them to establish and continue his work with his authority and they ordained successors. It is Apostolic Succession that is the link connecting the Church to Christ. It is the authority from Christ of the Episcopacy that brings so many knowledgeable people to return to the Catholic faith as I am a witness.
We see those who were ordained in apostolic succession fulfilling their ministry:
(Act 20:28 DRB) Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(1Th 1:1 DRB) Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians: in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th 1:2 DRB) Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all: making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,
(1Th 1:3 DRB) Being mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father.
(1Th 1:4 DRB) Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:
(1Th 1:5 DRB) For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
(1Th 1:6 DRB) And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(1Th 1:7 DRB) So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1Th 1:8 DRB) For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.
(1Th 1:9 DRB) For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you: and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.
(1Th 1:10 DRB) And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(Tit 1:5 DRB) For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:
(Tit 1:6 DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.
(Tit 1:7 DRB) For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, nor given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre:
(Tit 1:8 DRB) But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent:
(Tit 1:9 DRB) Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
St. Paul goes on to instruct St. Timothy as to who is a qualified candidate for ordination:
(1Ti 3:1 DRB) A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
(1Ti 3:2 DRB) It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,
(1Ti 3:3 DRB) Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but
(1Ti 3:4 DRB) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.
(1Ti 3:5 DRB) But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
(1Ti 3:6 DRB) Not a neophyte: lest, being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil.
(1Ti 3:7 DRB) Moreover, he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
(1Ti 5:22 DRB) Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.
We also find in the Scriptures that those in Apostolic Succession had particular and varied duties:
(1Co 12:27 DRB) Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
(1Co 12:28 DRB) And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
(1Co 12:29 DRB) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
(Eph 4:11 DRB) And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
(Eph 4:12 DRB) For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
We are further reminded of the foundation of the Church:
(Eph 2:19 DRB) Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God,
(Eph 2:20 DRB) Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
This is only some of the Scriptures speaking of apostolic succession and the duties, need and authority of the office.
(Truthsayer) All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church?
A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.
(Cristoiglesia) Obviously, using Scripture your claims are false that the Church did not practice these things. As you can clearly see everything you accused the Church of teaching that is according to you unbiblical is clearly supported in Scripture. Obviously You have missed a great deal of the New Testament teaching.
(Truthsayer) Continued after you respond to these points.
I look forward to your response.
God bless!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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