13 June, 2010

Arianism vs Christianity discussion with the Jehovah Witness "Mindy"

(Cristoiglesia) You call yourself Christians yet do not even believe in the most fundamental beliefs of Christians which is that Jesus is God.

(Mindy) “What God's Word THE BIBLE says and teaches:
"But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ THE SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have LIFE by means of his name."
~John 20:31”


(Cristoiglesia) OK and how does this teach Arianism? Yes, He is the Son of God and the second person in the Trinity of one God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

(Mindy) “THAT'S what I and over 7 MILLION of my fellow CHRISTIAN Witnesses of Jehovah worldwide fully believe and trust in.”

(Cristoiglesia) I am well aware of what you and the other schismatic sects of the Jehovah Witness sects believe. However this places you outside of Christianity as Christianity universally teaches the Trinity. You trust in a doctrine of men first promoted by the heretical bishop Arius. Arius was found in anathema at the Council of Nicaea. Even though He was supported by the powerful Emperor Constantine he lost the debate to the Holy Spirit who led the lowly deacon Athanasius to defeat the powerful bishop Arius. The teaching of Christ and the disciples triumphed over the heresy taught by Arius. Those who believe and follow the teaching of Arius are called Arians and not Christian. The belief in the Trinity is the fundamental belief for one to call oneself Christian. Jehovah Witnesses, Ang Dating Daan and Iglesia ni Cristo all are Arians. You deny the Church in whom Jesus placed all authority on earth. The Jehovah Witnesses have no authority to teach or to promote doctrines.

(Mindy) “Unless YOU or anyone else can show us by scripture exactly WHERE in the Bible (Bible book, chapter and verse) that it says anything even remotely close to "Unless we believe that Jesus Christ IS God Almighty we are doomed", we will go by what is specifically written at John 20:31 about our Lord.”

(Cristoiglesia) The Bible is the product of the Church. The Church wrote the New Testament and all the authors were Catholic Christians who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is the Church that decided the Christian Canon at the African Synods in the late fourth and early fifth centuries under the supervision of St. Augustin. The Bible has no teaching authority outside the Church. It is interesting and shows gross inconsistency that the Jehovah Witnesses accept their modified and truncated version of Scriptures that was produced by the Catholic Church but then deny the doctrines from that same source. Your proof text understanding of Scriptures is called eisegesis and almost always results in error as it does in this instance.

I do not believe that I have called you doomed as our sovereign Lord can save whom He wishes but the abandonment of His Church, ignorance of His nature and denial of His will by Jehovah Witnesses puts them into serious risk of the salvific promise. Certainly their rejection of the fullness of truth available in His Church and the Sacraments that provide this salvific grace opens them to all sorts of heretical lies and a questionable eternal destiny. But it also proves the satanic seduction of one following their own path instead of the narrow way which our Lord has taught that is necessary for eternal life.

(Mindy) “Jesus IS NOT God Almighty, he is THE SON of God Almighty, CREATED by God Almighty before all the other creations of God and was the only being and thing in existence that was created DIRECTLY by God whereas all other things where created by God but THROUGH the Word (Pre-human) Jesus as is testified IN SCRIPTURE.”

(Cristoiglesia) This is not the teaching of the Church either through the Bible, the apostolic witness or the Church. Yours is a heretical doctrine of men. It is the doctrine of men and in particular the teaching of Charles Taze Russell who was inspired by the Stone-Campbell-Millerite restorationist movement of the 19th century of which the Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Christodelphians and Seventh Day Adventists are some of the larger of the schisms. Your cousin faiths are almost as far from the truth as you are as well. Not surprising as you come from the same source.

No, Jesus is not a created being nor is He the human incarnation of Michael the Archangel. He is truly as the Bible teaches through the Church the second person of the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Please read the Nicene Creed which settled this controversy or the Athanasius Creed which also explains the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of God in the Trinity.

(Mindy) “I feel so very sorry for you dude, but there is still yet time for YOU to see the light, but that time is RAPIDLY running out. Wait until Jehovah God puts the thought of getting rid of religion into the hearts of the political powers within the U.N and the Catholic Church (and all other false religion) becomes no more. God's wrath is coming on Catholicism and her members.”

(Cristoiglesia) I saw the light ten years ago when I converted to Catholic Christianity and left the worldly, fluid and ever changing doctrines and heresies of Protestantism of which your restorationist sect is an extremely heterodox example. I came home to
Christ’s Church and into His will as He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one. It is this familial relationship and communion that He desires.

The worldly have tried to destroy Christ’s Church before but it remains as a witness to the veracity of Christ’s promise to humanity as the Church which will endure for all times and that it is the Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. There can be no other. The Church is the bride of Christ and will not suffer His wrath but perhaps the wrath of the world. We know from Christ’s teaching that the Church will survive and prosper despite the attacks from within and without. After all, Jesus taught us that the world would hate us as it hated Him and we know that He is victorious over the prince of darkness and father of lies. We put our trust in Him and not in a man-made sect full of false teaching and prophecy.

May our Lord have mercy on the enemies of His Church.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

10 comments:

  1. In your supposed conversation with "Mindy," you tell her that she "does not believe in the most fundamental beliefs of Christians which is that Jesus is God." Well, that is NOT what The Catholic Encyclopedia says. It calls the Trinity teaching “the central doctrine of the Christian religion." In other words, God is NOT a single person; he is a trinity of persons, composed of Father AND Son AND holy spirit. So, by trinity standards, God is "a unity of THREE" persons, NOT just Jesus. So, to call Jesus God makes as much sense as saying that a single angle of a triangle IS the triangle.

    You say that the Bible teaches through the Church that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, instead of quoting Scripture to confirm that, you refer to two man-made documents--the Nicene and the Athanasian Creeds. Don't you find that strange? Could it be that the Bible doesn't say what you want it to say? Is that why you prefer to refer to what the Church teaches rather than what the Bible says?

    BTW, the Nicene Creed did not settle the issue over the trinity. If you read it closely, it says nothing about God being made up of three persons. The so-called third person of the trinity didn't come around until many years later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: “The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381."

    It's easy for Catholics to call others heretics for disagreeing with them concerning Scripture. But that does not hide the facts that Catholic doctrines, such as the trinity are false. Consider just three features of the Athanasius Creed which YOU say "explains the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of God in the Trinity." Then, ask yourself if such thoughts can be verified by what Jesus taught in the Bible.

    1. We worship one God in trinity and trinity in unity.

    2 In this trinity, none is greater or less than another.

    3. He that will be saved must think of the trinity.

    If the Athanasian Creed "explains the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of God in the Trinity," as you say, can you show me in YOUR Bible where Jesus taught such things?

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  2. “It's easy for Catholics to call others heretics for disagreeing with them concerning Scripture. But that does not hide the facts that Catholic doctrines, such as the trinity are false. Consider just three features of the Athanasius Creed which YOU say "explains the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of God in the Trinity." Then, ask yourself if such thoughts can be verified by what Jesus taught in the Bible.

    1. We worship one God in trinity and trinity in unity.

    2 In this trinity, none is greater or less than another.

    3. He that will be saved must think of the trinity.

    If the Athanasian Creed "explains the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of God in the Trinity," as you say, can you show me in YOUR Bible where Jesus taught such things?”

    Jesus Christ Claims to be God
    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1

    Continued next comment>>>>

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  5. Jesus Christ Claims to be God
    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.


    Continued>>>

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  6. Jesus Christ Claims to be God
    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

    Continued>>>

    ReplyDelete
  7. Jesus Christ Claims to be God
    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

    Continued>>>

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  9. John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.
    John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
    John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."
    John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.
    John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.
    John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."
    John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

    Continued>>>

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  10. John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.
    John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."
    John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
    John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."
    Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.
    Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.
    Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
    Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    God bless!

    In Christ
    Fr. Joseph

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