07 May, 2011

Continuing discussion with one calling himself "John the Baptist"

(John the Baptist) Its interesting that Scriptural teaching actually involves the Scriptures in the bible!

(Cristoiglesia) Correct and it involves all of the Scriptures and using a proper hermeneutical approach to them. It also involves all of the Scriptures including all of the books that the Protestants have removed from Scriptures. Only if the Bible is approached this way can anyone come to rational and correct theological conclusions.

The New Testament of the Bible is written by Catholic Christians and it is about the Catholic Church. The Bible obviously follows the Church. Contrasted to the Protestant churches use the Bible to support their man-made doctrines and practices without considering its broader contextual teaching. What results is cobbled together theology that supports preconceived conclusions. The Catholic Church has a different approach and that is to go to the Bible to learn instead. We do not need a book to base our beliefs on as we have our founder Christ a we represent His teaching in practice. We are His promises of an enduring Church that is free from apostasy because of the teaching authority He left on earth that remains through apostolic succession. Sometimes one has to study for things to make sense but study is much like when a athlete practices. His practice must be perfect for the athlete to become perfected. Practicing to do something incorrectly just makes one better at error. So too when you study you must use good source material otherwise you just get better at knowing what is false instead of the truth. Studying the Scriptures requires good teachers knowing sound doctrine. The Bible teaches us what happens to people who gather around them those teachers who satisfy our itching ears instead of those who teach the truth. It is through learning that we accept sound doctrine that is sometimes hard teaching as Jesus gave the example in the Synagogue in Capernaum in John 6 where almost all of His disciples left Him over His teaching to eat His Body and drink His blood. He said these hard teachings are not understood by reason or carnal and worldly knowledge but by faith through our spirit for those who are in Christ.

The Protestant churches are based on worldliness and secular humanist philosophy. Coming out of Scholasticism the world was prepared by Satan to receive false teaching. Many people found the Church repressive by demanding that to be in Christ we must be obedient to Christ in His Church. Out of pride they grew weary of a God and a Church that taught that our purpose was to serve God. They were susceptible to the teaching of a God that served man instead. This began the spread of schism and all kinds of false teaching. There are now well over 30,000 exponentially increasing schisms in the Church with each representing a wound to the Corpus Christi. We know that the Bible teaches us that we will know them by their fruits and the fruits of Protestantism is division and false teaching mixed with some truth.

So, in conclusion, The Catholic Church, Christ's own Church which inspired with the guidance of the Holy Spirit the New Testament Scriptures and canonized the entirety of the Christian Bible by all reason and scholarship must contradict the Bible the least of all. In this case the Church does not contradict the Bible in any sense but is the personification of the Bible and heaven on earth.

(John the Baptist) One more time for Scriptural teaching. Where in the Scriptures of the bible does God say mary is the Queen on Heaven?

(Cristoiglesia) I am sorry, I made the assumption when I answered you previously that you were familiar with the Scriptures that point to Jesus as our King. But since you are unfamiliar with Scriptural teaching here are some of the Scripture verses that support Jesus being King:

• when the Lord your God was your king, 1 Sam. 12:12
• King of glory shall come in, Ps. 24:7
• God is the King of all the earth, Ps. 47:7 (Zech. 14:9, 16).
• Holy One of Israel is our king, Ps. 89:18
• Lord is a great God, and a great King, Ps. 95:3
• children of Zion be joyful in their King, Ps. 149:2
• mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts, Isa. 6:5 (2 Ne. 16:5).
• Thine eyes shall see the king, Isa. 33:17
• your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King, Isa. 43:15
• Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer, Isa. 44:6
• Lord … is the living God, and an everlasting king, Jer. 10:10
• King shall reign … execute judgment, Jer. 23:5
• thy King cometh unto thee, Zech. 9:9 (Matt. 21:5; John 12:15).
• I am a great King, saith the Lord, Mal. 1:14
• Where is he that is born King of the Jews, Matt. 2:2
• Jerusalem … city of the great King, Matt. 5:35
• King say … Come, ye blessed, Matt. 25:34
• Art thou the King of the Jews, Matt. 27:11 (Mark 15:2; Luke 23:3; John 18:33).
• This Is Jesus the King of the Jews, Matt. 27:37 (Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19).
• Blessed be the King that cometh, Luke 19:38
• Son of God; thou art the King of Israel, John 1:49
• Jesus therefore perceived that they would … make him a king, John 6:15
• Hail, King of the Jews, John 19:3
• Behold your King, John 19:14
• there is another king, one Jesus, Acts 17:7
• unto the King eternal, immortal … be honour and glory, 1 Tim. 1:17
• King of kings, and Lord of lords, 1 Tim. 6:15
• true are thy ways, thou King of saints, Rev. 15:3
• on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, Rev. 19:16 (Rev. 17:14).

As you can see the Bible clearly states on many occasions that Jesus is our King. If you had studied the culture of biblical times you would know that the mother of the king is always referred to as the queen. So, in calling the blessed mother of our Lord “Queen” it is simply affirming and giving praise to her Son as we recognize Him as King. This is just another way that the blessed mother of God points to her Son as to where our hope lies and our worship should be directed. Do you also need me to provide the Scriptures telling us that the blessed mother is the mother of Jesus? I can do so but it would be better for you if you researched the Scriptures for yourself to enhance your knowledge.

(John the Baptist) To do Scriptural teaching of this doctrine you need to show actual Scriptures that back up this doctrine. Not man's logic and wisdom in what the catholic church wants to be a doctrine. You need proof that this doctrine is from God. But all i see from the catholic church is man' rambling about nonsense and pure gobble **** with absolutely no evidence from the very Bible your church claimed to have written.

(Cristoiglesia)The misuse of Scripture does not help credibility for one may encounter those knowledgeable in Scriptures like those encountered by St. Paul and St. Silas in Acts 17:11. When one practices this kind of deception it makes them appear as a demagogue instead of one being a teacher in truth. It would be better if one simply stated one’s opinion without the “proof text”, which with proper exegesis does not prove or support one’s opinions. Certainly, the Bereans would have been even more skeptical if St. Paul and St. Silas had used improper hermeneutical methods in spreading the Gospel and would have had little success. The Bereans would have noticed that the use of Scriptures did not support the claims when understood using proper methodology. In fact, proper understanding of the Scriptures often illustrates the opposite of what is claimed. Much too often those attempting to convince others of their views are those that are predisposed to hate others and find it necessary to justify their own beliefs while demogoguing those beliefs held by others.

Before one uses “proof texts” to support one’s position, one should be aware that the scriptures they are using are a translation from another language that most often does not allow a word for word translation but instead the translator must seek equivalence in meaning rather than it being an exact word for word translation. Today we are two thousand years removed from the writing of the NT Scriptures, are in a different place and a different culture. For proper exegesis these things must be taken into consideration. This is why the Reformers, especially Martin Luther, were frightened and feared damnation by the misunderstanding of the new theory of “sola Scriptura”. This theory was meant to be a partnership between the layman and the scholar and not a license for each individual to become their own theologian. This is how false teaching propagates itself and is responsible for thousands of exponentially increasing schisms within the body of Christ.

This is why many of us (conservative, traditional and orthodox) in the Christian academic community use the interpretation theory of grammatico-historical exegesis. This method dictates that one coming to understanding of Scripture take into consideration the language , history and culture in which it is written or the context of the time, culture and history. To do otherwise is to allow our preconceptions to determine the meaning causing great error. We must learn and to strive to turn off our mental filter and allow the Scriptures to instruct instead of allowing our preconceptions to obscure what the Scriptures teach. When doing apologetics it is better to use “proof texts carefully as not to misuse them to spread false teaching and doctrine.

The proof text methodology of understanding Scripture meaning puts too much emphasis on the practical side of understanding. Typically the interpreter searches for topical texts to support their preconceptions. For instance, if one begins with a preconception that the Catholic Church is apostate, and that it’s various teaching and doctrines are false; one finds value in these texts and use them for their short, epigrammatic use of several key words that coincide with your presuppositional theme or topic rather than the evidence or support they actually bring from their own context. It is the ignoring of the context that makes this methodology wrong and, in fact, useless. This methodology treats the Bible as some sort of magical, mythological book where one can choose from its anthology of sayings for every occasion to support ones worldly views or fleshly desires. This is no different from the liberals or progressive Christians who use the Scriptures as a menu for creating their own personal theology and god, picking and using Scriptures without understanding. Scriptural texts always belong to larger units and address specific situations, coming out of historical purposes for which they were written and contexts for which they are now relevant. Most often, interpretation using this method shows a na├»ve reading of the text and disregards the purpose for which the text was written. There is no regard for the historical context which is relevant for understanding or the genre conventions which shape the understanding. What many have engaged in when using these texts is allegorization and other forms of reckless use of Scripture texts to support one’s prejudices against those whom they disagree, such as the Catholic Church, and have ignored their intended purpose and usage as determined by context, grammar and history. I cannot over emphasize the importance of context.

Generally in apologetics those using improper methodology are among the thousands of cult groups just making attempts to spread animosity among the body of Christ. They are not attempting to contribute to the learning of others or to participate in a discussion or debate but to proselytize their cultist views or to confuse those who are seeking and are weak in knowledge.

(John the Baptist) Sound doctrines? The doctrine of mary being the Queen of Heaven is not a sound doctrine. Sound doctrines are those in the Bible. Those which God has given us through the Word of God, not through a false church your Roman catholic church.

(Cristoiglesia) So are you denying that Jesus is King or that the blessed Mother is indeed his mother?

(John the Baptist) Your church has no authority to make up stories from men and call them doctrines of God. Your church has no authority to teach your doctrines as commandments of God.

(Cristoiglesia) Correct but you would spend many lifetimes trying to find where the Church has done what you claim. The only man our doctrines come from is Christ which is why we are called the “pillar and foundation of the truth” as opposed by what the Bible says about people like yourself that can not endure sound doctrines and who seek out false teachers that will satisfy their itching ears.

(John the Baptist) Your church the Roman catholic church is Irrelevant.

(Cristoiglesia) Nothing Jesus founded or taught is irrelevant. In Christian theology the Protestants are those who are irrelevant.

(John the Baptist) Repent and return back to Jesus before it is too late and you miss out on entering into heaven.

(Cristoiglesia) Jesus warned at the synagogue in Capernaum and emphasized the literalness of his words redundantly that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood for eternal life. Have you done as He commanded? He said that this was necessary for us to abide in Him and He in us. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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