(Cristoiglesia) ” What the church does say is that there have always been those believers known to God who will be saved and I agree "
(Saul follower of Jesus) Therefore we do not need the catholic church for receiving Salvation.
(Cristoiglesia) "I do not agree that those people are outside of His Church nor do I believe that it is possible for salvation without His Church "
(Saul follower of Jesus) You are saying only in your church can anyone receive Salvation. You cannot have your cake and eat it also. Either you can receive Salvation outside of the catholic church or you cannot, you cannot have it both ways.
(Cristoiglesia) And yes we are taught by God through His church which is Jesus.
(Saul follower of Jesus) If you acknowledge we can receive Salvation outside of the catholic church proves the Christian churches are the true church also, but if you insist Salvation is only from the catholic church shows that your church is a cult like the Mormon church.
So now the question is:" Is Salvation received only if a person is in the catholic church or can a person receive Salvation in a Christian church also?"
Therefore His Church is not the catholic church but His church is the body of all the believers in the world. Which means all the Christian churches are the true church and do have the fullness of Faith.
(Cristoiglesia) I am at a loss as to how you can logically come to the conclusions that you do. Your logic defies reason and does not follow the facts. The normative way for one to come to Christ is through His Church that He established on earth. He founded only one Church and that is the Catholic Church. All others claiming Christianity are man-made counterfeits like your own.
However, the Bible also says that the evidence of creation is all that is needed to come to faith but this is not the normative way that Christ established in His Church. We also have faith in God’s mercy that even those who are in protest of His Church and reject it will have the opportunity for the grace of salvation. But that grace comes only through His Church and the Sacraments. Even those who do not receive the Sacraments and thus God’s grace may be saved by His mercy if they were properly disposed to receive it but had no opportunity or knowledge of its necessity as in one being influenced by false teaching like is common in heretical sects like yours. As example, many Protestants deny the efficacy of Baptism or refuse the commandment to eat His Body and drink His Blood even though the Bible clearly a state that those who refuse these graces will not be in the familial relationship that He desires and indeed commands. They deny His Church as their teaching authority for faith and morals in favor of their man-made counterfeit teaching authority. They follow the doctrines of devils like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide when the Bible clearly condemns such nonsense. Even though they may do all of these things God’s mercy may be such that even these people may be saved but only through the Church which is the door to salvation.
CCC-846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
Contrary to what you desire and what you proclaim to the contrary Christ only founded one Church and not tens of thousands and that Church is the Catholic Church. All biblical, historical and patristic evidence confirms this fact. Historically, we can also understand that the Protestant sects have no claim as the true Church of Christ but can only claim legitimately to be a man-made counterfeit. Furthermore the Catholic Church is the only Church that legitimately should claim to be Christian as it is the only Church founded by Christ but the Church recognizes the possibility and prays that those who are outside of this one Church will receive a measure of God’s mercy that will allow them to be saved in spite of their disobedience and ignorance if they are validly baptized and God chooses to give them salvific grace. However this is very much in doubt since our Lord commanded that unless we eat His Body and drink His Blood that we have no life in us which is to abide in Him and Him in us. Without this great feast He provides Jesus say’s that one is not in the familial relationship that He desires according to the New Covenant He established on the cross when He said “It is finished” meaning the Old Covenant and introduced in the glory He revealed on the cross His new covenant with mankind and transformed the Passover into the new sacrifice of the New Covenant where He commands as His faithful to eat His truly real and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Just as in the Passover we must eat the real Lamb of God and not a metaphorical Body and Blood as some would claim in rejecting His commandment.
There is no authority from Christ for the Protestant sects and counterfeit churches and their claim of being a true Church has no biblical, historical or patristic evidence to support such a supposition. It is nothing more than wishful thinking by those who have created these white-washed tombs full of the appearance of obedience and worship but not in truth.
All authority was given to the apostles from Christ and at least some of that special authority is recorded in Scripture and is certainly attested to by the ante Nicene fathers.
There is no doubt that the apostles knew that their ministry would survive their death as it was needed to be a permanent living presence until the Parousia.
(Mat 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Knowing their responsibility in preserving the teaching of Christ they ordained successors giving them the gift of the Spirit with Episcopal consecration:
(Act 1:8 DRB) But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.
(Act 2:4 DRB) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
(Joh 20:22 DRB) When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
(Joh 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(2Ti 1:7 DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love and of sobriety.
There is no doubt that “Apostolic Succession” is a historical fact. Scriptures, as well show clearly that Christ chose these apostles and commissioned them to establish and continue his work with his authority and they ordained successors. It is Apostolic Succession that is the link connecting the Church to Christ. It is the authority from Christ of the Episcopacy that brings so many knowledgeable people to return to the Catholic faith as I am a witness.
We see those who were ordained in apostolic succession fulfilling their ministry:
(Act 20:28 DRB) Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(1Th 1:1 DRB) Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians: in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th 1:2 DRB) Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all: making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,
(1Th 1:3 DRB) Being mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father.
(1Th 1:4 DRB) Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:
(1Th 1:5 DRB) For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
(1Th 1:6 DRB) And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(1Th 1:7 DRB) So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1Th 1:8 DRB) For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.
(1Th 1:9 DRB) For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you: and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.
(1Th 1:10 DRB) And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
(Tit 1:5 DRB) For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:
(Tit 1:6 DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.
(Tit 1:7 DRB) For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, nor given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre:
(Tit 1:8 DRB) But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent:
(Tit 1:9 DRB) Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.
(1Ti 4:14 DRB) Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(2Ti 1:6 DRB) For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.
St. Paul goes on to instruct St. Timothy as to who is a qualified candidate for ordination:
(1Ti 3:1 DRB) A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
(1Ti 3:2 DRB) It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,
(1Ti 3:3 DRB) Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but
(1Ti 3:4 DRB) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.
(1Ti 3:5 DRB) But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
(1Ti 3:6 DRB) Not a neophyte: lest, being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil.
(1Ti 3:7 DRB) Moreover, he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
(1Ti 5:22 DRB) Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.
We also find in the Scriptures that those in Apostolic Succession had particular and varied duties:
(1Co 12:27 DRB) Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
(1Co 12:28 DRB) And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
(1Co 12:29 DRB) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
(Eph 4:11 DRB) And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
(Eph 4:12 DRB) For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
We are further reminded of the foundation of the Church:
(Eph 2:19 DRB) Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God,
(Eph 2:20 DRB) Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
This is only some of the Scriptures speaking of apostolic succession and the duties, need and authority of the office.
The invisible Church are those who have faith in our Lord but one cannot discern who are a part of His invisible Church. However, Jesus and the disciples founded a visible Church and we see the formation of that Church in the book of Acts. This Church is the Catholic Church and is the self-same Church that Jesus prayed that we would all be one within. Otherwise as professed Christians and not being obedient to His Church would place us outside of His will, blessings, promises and grace; if not fully but in great measure. Those outside of His will would be those that some describe as "playing" at Christianity and not following Jesus.
There are some outside of the visible Church which some call a "remnant" that are not be on the path to the narrow gate but may be saved by God's mercy. These are those who seek God but are deceived into being outside of His visible Church by no fault of their own. While not a part of the visible Church they can be considered a part of the invisible Church. So, Jesus and the disciples formed a visible Church as we see after Pentecost recorded in the book of Acts and it could be said that there are those known only to God who are a part of that visible Church against their will or knowledge that will be received in Glory to be a part of the Church Triumphant. But, as one can see in Scripture this is not the ordinary way to be saved through His Church but as an extraordinary example of His mercy.
The gates of hell will never prevail against His visible Church because of the protection of the Church by the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The Church is other worldly and heavenly in its nature and is endowed with its holiness and veracity from its founder Jesus. Jesus gave His promises to His visible Church so that the world could see the testimony of His Church as the pillar and ground of the truth and a shining city on a hill (Mat 5:14) It is the will of God that all should be saved by and through His Church as it is the Church that was commissioned to spread the Gospel throughout the world both corporeally and individually. The Church is a refuge and the Ark from the sins and temptations of the world. It is heaven on earth where Christ dwells in the Tabernacles and is worshipped. So if the visible Church ceased to exist it would make Jesus a liar and a pretender as the Messiah and Savior of the world because all of His promises would be proven false.
Unity requires that there be a knowledge and physical manifestation of that unity. That is the Catholic Church which is the visible Church. The invisible Church does not represent unity because it is known only to God which may be unified in faith but not in purpose.
The purpose of the Church is its testimony in spreading the "good news" to the world. That requires a visible unity. The world will never know if those who are in the invisible Church are preserved but the visible Church will always be the witness to the world that it remains after empires and governments have fallen, political ideologies have been born and died and false and counterfeit religions have come and gone. It is a testimony that Jesus is God of the Trinity and that His will be done on earth as well as in heaven regardless of the snares of Satan and His lies against humanity. God bless You!
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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