26 November, 2012

Discussion about the Eucharist



Speaking of going to Mass and not receiving both the Body and the Blood. "I Try" was under the impression that the Blood is not offered to the laity.

(Cristoiglesia) You must have gone at only Easter or at Christmas when there were large crowds that made it impossible to confect enough wine into Blood. It does not matter since every molecule of both element contain the fullness of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Catholics most often receive both."

(I Try) Wrong.........Just normal masses as my wife was Catholic we would go to mass one week and a pentecostal church the next.

Try again...Still would not explain why the rest were denied the blood!!!!

Cristoiglesia) No one is denied the Blood of Christ in Mass. As I said earlier both elements contain the fullness of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

(Cristoiglesia)"There are no emblems but actual flesh and blood."

(I Try) They are made as the actual flesh and blood by Christ every time,? Scripture?

(Cristoiglesia) John Chapter 6

(I Try) “Each "Saint' became a "Saint" because they did two confirmed miracles??
Christ told us that He never did anything it was all from God.”

(Cristoiglesia) Correct.

(I Try) Pentecostal churches don't have "Saints" they are all saints as told by Paul and we see miracles happen all the time by prayer to Christ.

(Cristoiglesia) All who are “in Christ are saints.

“There you go as JW's always do and attack the Gospel of our Lord who says that the righteous will be saved. “

(I Try) Wrong again, I am not nor have I ever been a JW I am a Christian that follows Christ and His examples from the bible. Unlike Roman Catholics that make up most of what they believe as there is no biblical support.

(Cristoiglesia) There is not a single Catholic doctrine that is contradictory to Scriptures.  

“No one is more righteous than the blessed mother of God”

(I Try) Mary was simply the earthly mother of the man Jesus Christ. While Christ, who is God, became a man through His birth by Mary, she can only be seen as the mother of the man Jesus Christ , she cannot be seen as the mother of God as Christ as part of the God hear predates Mary by very many uncountable years. To be even considered the mother of God she would need to be existing from the beginning even before Christ, which is impossible.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus who was fully God and fully man. The Bible says that Jesus was her son and that she was chosen from all women to be the mother of God. Jesus is God incarnate and Mary is His mother.

“so she is very much alive in Christ as Jesus promised His faithful would be.”

(I Try) Alive in Christ only applies to those that have died to their sins and are living a life following Christ, as she died and is awaiting resurrection like Adam, Eve, Judas, Joseph, etc she is dead and to address prayers to her is to talk to the dead. This is Necromancy which is indeed forbidden in the Bible.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, she truly lived an exemplary life. She is not dead as Christ’s atoning death allows all men to live in eternity. The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord so the blessed mother was assumed into heaven and experiences eternal life as we all hope to experience. If Jesus did not indeed die for our eternal life then your statements are a denial of the Gospel. Necromancy is consulting with evil spirits and is forbidden in the Bible and by the Church.

(I Try) Unless you can show scripture that Mary is alive in heaven with her son Christ you are indeed guilty of necromancy. But I understand why you would not understand this and even find it foolish.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes I do think it is foolish for one to claim to be a Christian and then deny the Gospel. I can clearly show you where your belief in “Soul Sleep” is foolishness. From my blog here:

http://fiatvolvntastua.blogspot.com/2009/06/does-bible-support-soul-sleep.html

1 Corinthians 2:14

Jesus said "this is my Body, This is my blood. Literal speaking”

(I Try) Jesus took bread and wine and did nothing to them in any way; they remained just bread and wine you want to add to God’s living word by saying that Christ actually made the bread and wine into his flesh and blood. If this was the situation it would therefore mean that the disciples actually ate and drank His blood and flesh making them cannibals.

(Cristoiglesia) He held them up and said the words of consecration “This is my Body, This is my Blood”. This is literal teaching. He could have instead said this represents my body, this represents my blood but that is not His words at all. He instead spoke literally. Cannibals eat dead flesh of their victims. The flesh and blood that Jesus spoke of was living and there was no victim.

(I Try) Literal speaking, Christ picked up bread and wine and said these are my flesh and blood clearly meaning they were emblems of His flesh and blood.

(Cristoiglesia) NO, He actually meant what He said. There was no attempt at a metaphor. It was literal teaching.

(I Try) Christ literally poured out His blood to save us from our sins but we are not to eat His flesh or drink His blood. Just as these are only emblems of His flesh and blood so we die and are buried with Christ in Romans chapter 6. To understand Christ was saying that it actually was Hid flesh and blood would be to say that we need to die before we can have our sins forgiven.

(Cristoiglesia) Where does the Bible say that Jesus lied when He commanded us to eat His Body and to drink His Blood. Where does He say that they were “emblems”? He does not! John 6 is literal teaching and Christ never made any indication that it was not. In fact He allowed all but the 12 to depart from Him never to follow Him again believing that He was speaking literally, which by that action proves that He was speaking literally. He even turned to the 12 and invited them to leave also if they could not believe in His teaching. They chose to remain in spite of the hard teaching and St. Peter spoke for the 12 saying “to whom shall we go, as you alone have the words of eternal life.” If Jesus had been speaking metaphorically He certainly would not have let the disciples leave to never follow Him again. Jesus came to save all men of faith and they had no faith in Him or His teaching when it conflicted with their carnal mind. The 12 understood because of their faith in Him whom they had come to trust. They trusted in the messenger and not just their carnal senses of intellect and reason.   

(I Try) JW’s believe that Romans 6:7 means all must die to pay the wages of sin, this is as silly as believing that first Christ meant it was His flesh and blood.

(Cristoiglesia) Like the 12 disciples at Capernaum I believe the message because I trust the messenger, Christ.

(I Try) 1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, the many, are one bread and one body; for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18 Behold Israel after the flesh. Are not those who eat of the sacrifices also partakers of the altar?
Is Israel the blood of Christ????

(Cristoiglesia) No, when we receive the Body and Blood of Christ we become part of that Body and one within the mystical Body of Christ. St. Paul speaks of the idolaters of Israel and Jacob who made offerings to false idols. He is condemning the partakers of devils in verse 18.

(I Try) Where do you get the idea that I am attacking my God’s living word? I am questioning your additions to that living word, nowhere in the bible are we told to pray to anyone but God. As Christ is the second part of the God head, we can pray directly to Him or through Him as our mediator to the Father.”

(Cristoiglesia) “Pray” simply means “to ask or implore”. We are taught in Scriptures that we are one Body, and that we are responsible to love one another as an example of our love for God. We are one mystical Body and we show our love for one another and follow Jesus’ commandment to love one another by “asking, imploring” others to pray for us and we for them. Jesus is truly the one mediator but we can and should have many intercessors who through their love for one another pray for others and ask others to pray for them. We ask others to pray for us because the Bible teaches that the prayers of the righteous are of great benefit to us. “No one is more righteous than the blessed mother of God”

(I Try) Although the Bible documents that Mary became the mother of Jesus and clearly teaches that Jesus is God, it never states, or even implies, that Mary was (or is) the “Mother of God.” For a theological syllogism to explain correctly the relationship between Mary and God, it must be based on biblical truth. We can propose correctly that (1) Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8); (2) God became flesh (John 1:1,14); (3) therefore, Mary is the mother of Jesus according to the flesh (Romans 9:5), i.e., Jesus’ physical body.

To say Mary is the mother of God is to play with words because while Christ was fully God, Mary gave birth to Christ who was fully human not God. Christ as God has always existed and He was not born of Mary as God that had always existed but as the man Jesus Christ.

(Cristoiglesia) Jesus is God and Mary is His mother. This is proven beyond all doubt in the Bible and confirmed by Christ’s Church. You try desperately to divide Jesus but the teaching of the Bible is that Jesus is fully God and fully man in His oneness without division to support a prejudice as you desperately attempt. Jesus divinity cannot be separated from His being man. What the blessed mother bore on the day of Christ’s birth was His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and not just His flesh or carnal being.   

(I Try) Mary is described as blessed among women never as being more righteous than any other woman let alone any other person. Luke 1:42 Luk 1:48 all generations shall count me blessed.
((NOTE)) (((not more RIGHTEOUS))))That is not biblical.

(Cristoiglesia) The blessed mother alone is described in Scriptures to be full of grace. She was chosen from all other women and prepared at her very conception by God’s salvific grace to be the mother of God. She lived a life without sin and always pointed towards her Son as the source of our salvation.

(I Try)I have never been to a mass where the blood is shared, just the priest partakes.

(Cristoiglesia) I have never been to a Mass where it was not shared.
"He went on to say that we must gnaw (Gr. Trogo) on His flesh which are hardly the words of metaphor.'

How about; no matter if the thing to eat was to be "Gnawed' that is if it is an emblem or the actual flesh of Christ, it is to be gnawed.

(I Try) Your argument about gnawing is just foolish as it makes no difference if the meaning of the thing to be gnawed. My Pentecostal church gnaws on emblems of bread and drink emblems of blood, we are not cannibals; we do not eat the flesh or drink the blood of a man, the man Jesus Christ.

(Cristoiglesia) Huh? How can one “gnaw” on a metaphor or emblem? One must gnaw on something physical like His Body, His flesh. No we are not cannibals as we do not eat dead flesh or drink the blood of the dead.

(I Try) Someone should have told Paul that it was not just bread and wine, he clearly decided it was normal bread and wine. Paul is very good at explaining things in his letters and if it was flesh and blood and not bread and wine, I am very sure he would have made a detailed explanation of how it is changed. Paul talks a lot about the Lords Supper but makes no mention of it being blood and flesh changed from wine and bread. He does repeat Christ's words about, "This is my blood... but makes no reference to it being changed.

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry, and another drunken.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup.

(Cristoiglesia) Huh? St. Paul is clearly separating a regular meal from the sacrifice of the Eucharist. We do not examine ourselves to eat our meals for the subsistence of our flesh but we do examine ourselves when we receive the great feast of the Eucharist provided by the miracle of our Lord. He further speaks that unless we discern the reality of His Body when we eat the Eucharist then we bring condemnation on ourselves. How is this possible if it is nothing more than an emblem or a metaphor? Why would eating an emblem or a metaphor bring condemnation on anyone it that is what we are to discern? No we are to discern the reality of the real Body of our Lord to be worthy to receive. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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