My statements are in bold or highlighed in yellow. The statements of Elmer are in italics. He is a member of the Church of God, International and questions the very veracity of the Catholic Church which Jesus personally founded.
“First of all, I think you misunderstood what I have said before. I did not say that Jesus is not God. I believe that Jesus is also a God. Jesus was the only begotten son of God so He must also be a God in nature. The Father and the Son are both God, they are the same in nature, but what I am emphasizing is that they are not perfectly equal to each other.”
Why do you believe in polytheism? I did not know that this is what Eli Soriano taught. This is even more heretical than what the Jehovah Witnesses teach as it dilutes, separates and confounds the Christian understanding of God. Polytheism is not biblical at all and is more akin to the religions of the Roman Empire with its multiple gods and to Greece with its families of gods. The Christian belief taught by Jesus, His Church and the Bible is that there is one God revealed to humanity as three persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If there is one God then how can their be inequality? Inequality cannot logically or rationally be except that Jesus’ humanity is not equal to His Godliness.
(the highlighted portions are from your previous email)
“Your denial of Christ as God and the 2nd person in the Trinity of the one God. This teaching denies the very veracity of Christ’s atoning work on the cross for mankind. It is truly a doctrine of devils to deny Christ and to deny His Gospel.”
“Again, I do not deny Christ as God and His Gospel. I am denying about the doctrine of Trinity wherein the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are perfectly equal to each other, their glory equal and their majesty coeternal. I am denying of the perfect equality, brother.
You said before that Sola Scriptura is a heresy that results in error. So do you mean, if we are going to study the word of God alone, then, there will be errors? That is a heresy! There are no errors in the word of God! The errors are those that were added by the Catholic church. I also need to say that the Catholic church is not the authority, I’ll explain it later. They are just claiming that they are and claiming that Jesus founded their church.”
Of course the result of studying the Scriptures alone almost always results in error as the more than 40,000 different sects all with some truth and with great error attest. In such a scenario each person whether ignorant or a scholar believes himself to be the authority for learning and for teaching. They believe themselve to be theologians. Such a teaching stokes the fires of our prejudice with pridefulness. We, as a result, believe ourselves an authority greater than the authority that Christ ordained which is His Church. Each man becomes His own Church and the more charismatic become pastors and false teachers by creating their own counterfeit sects to what Christ created and gave all teaching authority. A good example of this is Eli Soriano who created the sect that you call a church which it can never be. Only Christ can found a Church and that one Church is undeniable the Catholic Church. The Bible speaks of the Catholic Church as the pillar and foundation of the truth. So, people like Eli Soriano in all His pride teaches against what Jesus founded and created in favor of his own sect out of pride to gain favor and fortune from men. The true Church has always been a cooperation between the scholarly and those seeking the truth in Christ.
The approach to authority is very different in the ancient Church than in the modernist Protestant church. The Catholic Church follows the “Word of God alone” while the Protestant ecclesiastical groups follow Sola Scriptura which states that only God’s written word is authoritative. The latter is a sixteenth century man made doctrine designed to destroy the unity of the Church and fragments the entire body of Christ by exponentially increasing schisms caused by accepting only part of God’s word by the Protestants. Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine for a better understanding of the Logos but instead is designed to circumvent the legitimate authority of the Church given by Christ.
It is the belief of the ancient Church that is the Magisterium of the Church that has the authority given by Christ to expound on, recognize and guard the Word of God. The Word of God is not only the written Scriptures but all that is handed to the Church by the Holy Spirit. In so doing and carrying out her responsibility the Church is the true servant of the Word.
God’s people have never been Sola Scriptura advocates. In Jesus’ day the orthodox Jews were not, nor were Jesus or the apostles. The continuation Sola Verbum Dei is a theological continuation of God’s Word from the Old Covenant to the New. The only ones who believed in anything resembling Sola Scriptura were the Sadducees who were the theological liberals of their day. We know that the first century Christians did not believe in Sola Scriptura by the teaching of St. Paul in Holy writ:
(2Th 2:15 DRB) (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
The Church teaches that the Word of God is the Logos:
(Joh 1:1 DRB) In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
(Joh 1:2 DRB) The same was in the beginning with God.
(Joh 1:3 DRB) All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
(Joh 1:4 DRB) In him was life: and the life was the light of men.
So the question among Christians should not be what is the Word but instead how is the Word revealed to man. To the Protestant the Word is only revealed in written form called Sola Scriptura. To the Catholic Christian the word has a much broader meaning and is revealed to man in more than a written form where men were inspired to reveal God’s Word. Catholics believe that inspiration is not only personal as with the biblical writers but is also revealed to and through the Church such as in the Ecumenical Councils and through the authority exercised through the Church to recognize, guard, interpret and teach the Word. The Church throughout history has faithfully exercised her authority to guard the word of God against the attacks of heresies, such as Sola Scriptura. The Bible is not to be used for private instruction no matter how skilled the biblical scholar. (See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:15-16, 1 John 4:1), 1 Tim 3:15 clearly tells us of the true authority for teaching which is Christ's own Church.
(Me) "You also said that the Trinity is the fundamental belief of Christianity."
That is undeniably correct.
(Me) "May I ask where did you get that the Trinity is the fundamental belief of Christianity?"
It comes from the teaching of Jesus, His Church and the Bible. It is the undeniable teaching of Christianity.
(Me) If that is right, then why didn’t Jesus and the Apostles even mention about the doctrine of Trinity wherein the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are perfectly equal, their glory equal or their majesty coeternal?
It became a doctrine when the Church confirmed at the Council of Nicaea the ongoing orthodox teaching of the three sources of divine truth which is the teaching of Jesus, His Church and the Bible.”
I can see that you are using the Council of Nicaea as your source to prove the doctrine of the perfect equality of the Three Persons. The perfect equality of the Three Persons is not found in the teachings of Jesus, it is not also found in the bible, that only means that the word of God is not the source of the doctrine of the perfect equality of the Three Persons.”
As I previously explained to you….. Jesus did not teach polytheism as you claim. Jesus is not “a” God but one of the three persons in the Trinity of the one God.
Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God
John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.
Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.
Jesus Christ Claims to be God
Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."
John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.
John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.
John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."
John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.
John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.
John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."
John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."
Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.
Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.
Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God
Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.
Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.
Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.
Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.
Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.
Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.
Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.
Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.
Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.
Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.
Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.
Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.
Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.
Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.
Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.
Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.
Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.
Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.
Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.
Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.
Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.
Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.
Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.
Matt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus changes bread and wine into His body and blood.
Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.
Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.
Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.
Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.
Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.
Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.
Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.
Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.
John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.
John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.
Jesus Christ is Worshiped
Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos u").
“ God is One in Three Divine Persons
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).
"[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen." Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).
"For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;' He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).
"And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle' (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.' And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'" Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181).
"In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her--being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas."Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 2 (post A.D. 213).
"Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: My Father is greater than I.' In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being a little lower than the angels.' Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213).
“Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter. ...even the Spirit of truth,' thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and San amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality? For, of course, all things will be what their names represent them to be; and what they are and ever will be, that will they be called; and the distinction indicated by the names does not at all admit of any confusion, because there is none in the things which they designate. "Yes is yes, and no is no; for what is more than these, cometh of evil." Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213).
"[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages." Origen, First Principles, 4:28 (A.D. 230).
""Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partitive subsistences and god-heads three. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius's opinions; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and the Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Monad into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must needs be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Triad be gathered up and brought together. For it is the doctrine of the presumptuous Marcion, to sever and divide the Divine Monarchy into three origins,--a devil's teaching, not that of Christ's true disciples and lovers of the Saviour's lessons, For they know well that a Triad is preached by divine Scripture, but that neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods.” Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262).
“Equally must one censure those who hold the: Son to be a work, and consider that the Lord has come into being, as one of things which really came to be; whereas the divine oracles witness to a generation suitable to Him and becoming, but not to any fashioning or making. A blasphemy then is it, not ordinary, but even the highest, to say that the Lord is in any sort a handiwork. For if He came to be Son, once He was not; but He was always, if (that is) He be in the Father, as He says Himself, and if the Christ be Word and Wisdom and Power (which, as ye know, divine Scripture says), and these attributes be powers of God. If then the Son came into being, once these attributes were not; consequently there was a time, when God was without them; which is most absurd…
Neither then may we divide into three Godheads the wonderful and divine Monad; nor disparage with the name of 'work' the dignity and exceeding majesty of the Lord; but we must believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Christ Jesus His Son, and in the Holy Ghost, and hold that to the God of the universe the Word is united. For 'I,' says He, 'and the Father are one; 'and, 'I in the Father and the Father in Me.' For thus both the Divine Triad, and the holy preaching of the Monarchy, will be preserved." Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262).
"Now the person in each declares the independent being and subsistence. But divinity is the property of the Father; and whenever the divinity of these three is spoken of as one, testimony is borne that the property of the Father belongs also to the Son and the Spirit: wherefore, if the divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, and the unity is not dissevered; and the oneness Which is naturally the Father's is also acknowledged to be the Son's and the Spirit's." Gregory the Wonderworker (Thaumaturgus), Sectional Confession of Faith, 8 (A.D. 270).
"For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreate, without end, and to which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Ghost to be what in substance and personality He is." Methodius, Oration on the Palms, 4 (A.D. 305).
"We believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of all things, visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,begotten from the Father,only-begotten,that is,from the substance of the Father,God from God,light from light,true God from true God,begotten,not made,of one substance with the Father...And in the Holy Spirit." Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).
"Let no one therefore separate the Old from the New Testament; let no one say that the Spirit in the former is one, and in the latter another; since thus he offends against the Holy Ghost Himself, who with the Father and the Son together is honoured, and at the time of Holy Baptism is included with them in the Holy Trinity. For the Only-begotten Son of God said plainly to the Apostles, Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Our hope is in Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost. We preach not three God; let the Marcionites be silenced; but with the Holy Ghost through One Son, we preach One God. The Faith is indivisible; the worship inseparable. We neither separate the Holy Trinity, like some; nor do we as Sabellius work confusion. But we know according to godliness One Father, who sent His Son to be our Saviour we know One Son, who promised that He would send the Comforter from the Father; we know the Holy Ghost, who spake in the Prophets, and who on the day of Pentecost descended on the Apostles in the form of fiery tongues, here, in Jerusalem, in the Upper Church of the Apostles..."Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 16:4 (c. A.D. 350).
"I can see no limit to my venture of speaking concerning God in terms more precise than He Himself has used. He has assigned the Names--Father, Son and Holy Ghost,--which are our information of the Divine nature. Words cannot express or feeling embrace or reason apprehend the re suits of enquiry carried further; all is ineffable, unattainable, incomprehensible. Language is exhausted by the magnitude of the theme, the splendour of its effulgence blinds the gazing eye, the intellect cannot compass its boundless extent...When Israel hears that its God is one, and that no second god is likened, that men may deem him God, to God Who is God's Son, the revelation means that God the Father and God the Son are One altogether, not by confusion of Person but by unity of substance. For the prophet forbids us, because God the Son is God, to liken Him to some second deity....But I cannot describe Him, Whose pleas for me I cannot describe. As in the revelation that Thy Only-begotten was born of Thee before times eternal, when we cease to struggle with ambiguities of language and difficulties of thought, the one certainty of His birth remains; so I hold fast in my consciousness the truth that Thy Holy Spirit is from Thee and through Him, although I cannot by my intellect comprehend it." Hilary of Poiters, On the Trinity, 2:5,4:42,12:56 (A.D. 359).
"[T]hey ought to confess that the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, as they have been taught by the divine words, and by those who have understood them in their highest sense. Against those who cast it in our teeth that we are Tritheists, let it be answered that we confess one God not in number but in nature. For everything which is called one in number is not one absolutely, nor yet simple in nature; but God is universally confessed to be simple and not composite." Basil, To the Caesareans, Epistle 8 (A.D. 360).
"For this Synod of Nicea is in truth a proscription of every heresy. It also upsets those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and call Him a Creature. For the Fathers, after speaking of the faith in the Son, straightway added, 'And we believe in the Holy Ghost,' in order that by confessing perfectly and fully the faith in the Holy Trinity they might make known the exact form of the Faith of Christ, and the teaching of the Catholic Church. For it is made clear both among you and among all, and no Christian can have a doubtful mind on the point, that our faith is not in the Creature, but in one God, Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible: and in one Lord Jesus Christ His Only-begotten Son, and in one Holy Ghost; one God known in the holy and perfect Trinity, baptized into which, and in it united to the Deity, we believe that we have also inherited the kingdom of the heavens, in Christ Jesus our Lord, hrough whom to the Father be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen."Athanasius, To the Bishops in Africa, 11 (A.D. 372).
"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified." Epiphanius, Creed (A.D. 374).
"The Substance of the Trinity is, so to say, a common Essence in that which is distinct, an incomprehensible, ineffable Substance. We hold the distinction, not the confusion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a distinction without separation; a distinction without plurality; and thus we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as each existing from and to eternity in this divine and wonderful Mystery: not in two Fathers, nor in two Sons, nor in two Spirits. For there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.' There is One born of the Father, the Lord Jesus, and therefore He is the Only-begotten. There is also One Holy Spirit,' as the same Apostle hath said. So we believe, so we read, so we hold. We know the fact of distinction, we know nothing of the hidden mysteries; we pry not into the causes, but keep the outward signs vouchsafed unto us." Ambrose, On the Christian Faith, 8:92 (A.D. 380).
"I have very carefully considered this matter in my own mind...but I have been unable to discover any thing on earth with which to compare the nature of the Godhead...I picture to myself an eye, a fountain, a river, as others have done before, to see if the first might be analogous to the Father, the second to the Son, and the third to the Holy Ghost...Again I thought of the sun and a ray and light. But here again there was a fear lest people should get an idea of composition in the Uncompounded Nature, such as there is in the Sun and the things that are in the Sun. And in the second place lest we should give Essence to the Father but deny Personality to the Others, and make Them only Powers of God, existing in Him and not Personal." Gregory of Nazianen, 5th Oration (31), 31, 32 (A.D. 380).
"We believe in one God, the Father, almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into existence...And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshipped and together glorified..." Creed of Constantinople (A.D. 381).
"For neither the centurion nor that poor woman who for twelve years was wasting away with a bloody flux, had believed in the mysteries of the Trinity, for these were revealed to the Apostles after the resurrection of Christ; so that the faith of such as believe in the mystery of the Trinity might have its due preeminence: but it was her singleness of mind and her devotion to her God that met with our Lord's approval: 'For she said within herself, If I do but touch his garment, I shall be made whole.' This is the faith which our Lord said was seldom found. This is the faith which even in the case of those who believe aright is hard to find in perfection. 'According to your faith, be it done unto you,' says God. I do not, indeed, like the sound of those words. For if it be done unto me according to my faith, I shall perish. And yet I certainly believe in God the Father, I believe in God the Son, and I believe in God the Holy Ghost. I believe in one God; nevertheless, I would not have it done unto me according to my faith." Jerome, Against Luciferians, 15 (A.D. 382).
"But they[ie. Catholics] worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, One Godhead; God the Father, God the Son and (do not be angry) God the Holy Ghost, One Nature in Three Personalities, intellectual, perfect, Self-existent, numerically separate, but not separate in Godhead." Gregory of Nazianzen, Against the Arians and concerning himself, Oration 33:16 (ante A.D. 389).
"Seest thou that he implies that there is no difference in the gifts of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? Not confounding the Persons, God forbid! But declaring the equal honor of the Essence. For that which the Spirit bestows, this he saith that God also works; this, that the Son likewise ordains and grants. Yet surely if the one were inferior to the other, or the other to it, he would not have thus set it down nor would this have been his way of consoling the person who was vexed." John Chrysostom, Homily on 1st Corinthians, 29:4 (c. A.D. 392).
"Since, then, in the case of those who are regenerate from death to eternal life, it is through the Holy Trinity that the life-giving power is bestowed on those who with faith are deemed worthy of the grace, and in like manner the grace is imperfect, if any one, whichever it be, of the names of the Holy Trinity be omitted in the saving baptism--for the sacrament of regeneration is not completed in the Son and the Father alone without the Spirit: nor is the perfect boon of life imparted to Baptism in the Father and the Spirit, if the name of the Son be suppressed: nor is the grace of that Resurrection accomplished in the Father and the Son, if the Spirit be left out :--for this reason we rest all our hope, and the persuasion of the salvation of our souls, upon the three Persons, recognized by these names; and we believe in the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Fountain of life, and in the Only-begotten Son of the Father, Who is the Author of life, as saith the Apostle, and in the Holy Spirit of God, concerning Whom the Lord hath spoken, 'It is the Spirit that quickeneth". And since on us who have been redeemed from death the grace of immortality is bestowed, as we have said, through faith in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, guided by these we believe that nothing servile, nothing created, nothing unworthy of the majesty of the Father is to be associated in thought with the Holy Trinity; since, I say, our life is one which comes to us by faith in the Holy Trinity, taking its rise from the God of all, flowing through the Son, and working in us by the Holy Spirit.”Gregory of Nyssa, To the City of Sebasteia, Epistle 2 (ante A.D. 394).
“Having, then, this full assurance, we are baptized as we were commanded, and we believe as we are baptized, and we hold as we believe; so that with one accord our baptism, our faith, and our ascription of praise are to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. But if any one makes mention of two or three Gods, or of three God-heads, let him be accursed. And if any, following the perversion of Arius, says that the Son or the Holy Spirit were produced from things that are not, let him be accursed. But as many as walk by the rule of truth and acknowledge the three Persons, devoutly recognized in Their several properties, and believe that there is one Godhead, one goodness, one rule, one authority and power, and neither make void the supremacy of the Sole-sovereignty, nor fall away into polytheism, nor confound the Persons, nor make up the Holy Trinity of heterogeneous and unlike elements, but in simplicity receive the doctrine of the faith, grounding all their hope of salvation upon the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,--these according to our judgment are of the same mind as we, and with them we also trust to have part in the Lord." Gregory of Nyssa, To the City of Sebasteia, Epistle 2 (ante A.D. 394).
"We have said elsewhere that those things are predicated Specially in the Trinity as belonging severally to each person, which are predicated relatively the one to the other, as Father and Son, and the gift of both, the Holy Spirit; for the Father is not the Trinity, nor the Son the Trinity, nor the gift the Trinity: but what whenever each is singly spoken of in respect to themselves, then they are not spoken of as three in the plural number, but one, the Trinity itself, as the Father God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; the Father good, the Son good, and the Holy Spirit good; and the Father omnipotent, the Son omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit omnipotent: yet neither three Gods, nor three goods, nor three omnipotents, but one God, good, omnipotent, the Trinity itself; and whatsoever else is said of them not relatively in respect to each other, but individually in respect to themselves. For they are thus spoken of according to l essence, since in them to be is the same as to be great, as to be good, as to be wise, and whatever else is said of each person individually therein, or of the Trinity itself, in respect to themselves. And that therefore they are called three persons, or three substances, not in order that any difference of essence may be understood, but that we may be able to answer by some one word, should any one ask what three, or what three things? And that there is so great an equality in that Trinity, that not only the Father is not greater than the Son, as regards divinity, but neither are the Father and Son together greater than the Holy Spirit; nor is each individual person, whichever it be of the three, less than the Trinity itself." Augustine, On the Trinity, 8 Pref (A.D. 416).
"All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, buried and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,' the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire,' but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, Thou art my Son,' whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again;' but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith." Augustine, On the Trinity, I:4,7 (A.D. 416).
"But after him the schism of Sabellius burst forth out of reaction against the above mentioned heresy, and as he declared that there was no distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, he impiously confounded, as far as was possible, the Persons, and failed to distinguish the holy and ineffable Trinity. Next after him whom we have mentioned there followed the blasphemy of Arian perversity, which, in order to avoid the appearance of confounding the Sacred Persons, declared that there were different and dissimilar substances in the Trinity." John Cassian, The Incarnation of Christ, 2 (A.D. 430).
"In God there is one substance, but three Persons; in Christ two substances, but one Person. In the Trinity, another and another Person, not another and another substance (distinct Persons, not distinct substances)...Because there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost; but yet there is not another and another nature (distinct natures) but one and the same nature." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 37 (A.D. 434).
"But although, dearly-beloved, the actual form of the thing done was exceeding wonderful, and undoubtedly in that exultant chorus of all human languages the Majesty of the Holy Spirit was present, yet no one must think that His Divine substance appeared in what was seen with bodily eyes. For His Nature, which is invisible and shared in common with the Father and the Son, showed the character of His gift and work by the outward sign that pleased Him, but kept His essential property within His own Godhead: because human sight can no more perceive the Holy Ghost than it can the Father or the Son. For in the Divine Trinity nothing is unlike or unequal, and all that can be thought concerning Its substance admits of no diversity either in power or glory or eternity. And while in the property of each Person the Father is one, the Son is another, and the Holy Ghost is another, yet the Godhead is not distinct and different; for whilst the Son is the Only begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, not in the way that every creature is the creature of the Father and the Son, but as living and having power with Both, and eternally subsisting of That Which is the Father and the Son." Pope Leo the Great (regn. 440-461), Sermon 77:2 (ante A.D. 461).
"Or, if any one should perhaps think that this is done out of veneration for the supreme Trinity, neither so is there any objection to immersing the person to be baptized in the water once, since, there being one substance in three subsistences, it cannot be in any way reprehensible to immerse the infant in baptism either thrice or once, seeing that by three immersions the Trinity of persons, and in one the singleness of the Divinity may be denoted." Pope Gregory the Great (regn. A.D. 590-604), To Leander Bishop of Hispalis, Letter 43 (A.D. 591).
"These hypostases are within each other, not so that they are confused, but so that they contain one another, in accordance with the word of the Lord: I am in the Father and the Father is in me ...We do not say three gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, we say only one God, the Holy Trinity, the Son, and the Spirit going back to only one Principle, without composition or confusion, quite unlike the heresy of Sabellius. These Persons are united, not so that they are confused with each other, but so that they are contained within each other. There is between them a circumincession without mixture or confusion, by virtue of which they are neither seperated nor divided in substance, unlike the heresy of Arius. In fact, in a word, the divinity is undivided in the individuals, just as there is only one light in three suns contained within each other, by means of an intimate interprenetration." John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, I:8 (A.D. 712).” (http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#tradition-II)
“ I also need to say again that the Catholic church is not the authority and they have still no right to invent things even if they claim that they are the true church. We must not add to His words.”
Here is what Jesus promised His Church when He gave to the Church all teaching authority on earth:
Matthew 18:18 (NRSVCE)
18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
(Me)“Please read Jeremiah 26:2, it says, “Thus saith the Lord; Stand in the court of the Lord 's house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord' s house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word:”
And Proverbs 30:5-6 says, “Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.””
Your posting of these verses to support the Trinity are somewhat confusing. Are you trying to make a case that the New Testament should not have been written? Of course these verses speak of the oral teaching and not the written Word of God.
(Me) “Again, these verses conforms to what the Apostle Paul preached that we must not add to God’s words. These were some of the indications that the word of God is complete.”
At the time this was written only the Old Testament existed. Do you believe that only the Old Testament has veracity and that the New Testament should have never been written and combined with the Old Testament by the Church in the late 4th and early 5th centuries?
“My point here, brother, is that God is commanding the men not to add in His words. It is God, who has the highest authority, who commanded to write his words to keep them and commanded the men not to add to His words. The New Testament is added by God not by men. Men were just used as an instrument by God to write His words but still men must not add in the words that God commanded them to write according to the bible. God does not prohibit Himself to add in His own words. So that, it is a heresy to say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are perfectly equal, their glory equal and their majesty coeternal.”
So, it seems as if even though Jesus gave all authority for teaching to His Church that you do not believe that the Church has the authority to come to theological conclusions based on Scripture. According to Christ it is His Church that has this authority and not man-made counterfeit Christian sects like the Church of God International. The Bible calls His Church, the Catholic Church, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”. Are you wanting me to believe that the Bible lies when it points to the true source of the fullness of truth being His own Church.
(Me) Again, I want you to read I Corinthians 15:24-28, it says,
“Then comes the end, when he will give up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have put an end to all rule and to all authority and power.
For his rule will go on till he has put all those who are against him under his feet.
The last power to come to an end is death.
For, as it says, He has put all things under his feet. But when he says, All things are put under him, it is clear that it is not said about him who put all things under him.
And when all things have been put under him, then will the Son himself be under him who put all things under him, so that God may be all in all.
It is right that it refers to the evil power, which is being describe in Revelations 20:9. But, did you notice what is said in the last verse? After the Son has put all those evil, who are against him, under his feet, then the Son will also subject himself to the Father. The Son is not just honoring the Father but subjecting himself to the Father. So that, God may be all in all. This is referring to God, the Father. Again, this means that the Father is the greatest. He is greater than the Son and even than the Holy Spirit! That is what the bible teaches but you neglected this. Jesus admits that His Father is really the greatest. How come the doctrine of Trinity would match what Jesus has said? “
As I have already explained to you that the Son will be subject to the Father according to His human nature and will continue even after the general resurrection. The whole mystical Body of Christ will be subject to God and will obey Him in all things.
“Still, you keep on emphasizing that the Son will subject to the Father according to His human nature at the time that the end will happen stated in 1Cor 15:24-28. You know, the Lord Jesus Christ does not have His human body anymore. Jesus cannot go to heaven if He still have his human nature. When he went back to heaven, His body is now glorious. (Phi 3:20-21) “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
Correct in that Jesus will honor the Father as the Lord of all and the true origin of all life.
“A scenario of the coming of Jesus Christ shown in 1Tes 4:16, says “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” It is impossible to happen if Jesus has still the human nature at that time. Therefore it is not right to say that “the Son will be subject to the Father according to His human nature” at that scenario. I think you misunderstood that the one who will subject there to the Father is the Son who will descend from heaven not the “whole mystical Body of Christ” you are talking. It is the Son of God (the Word, John 1:1, which is God) will subject himself to the Father and that means that their Godhead are not perfectly equal. God, the Father, is the greatest.”
For Jesus to honor His Father is not to be unequal. Certainly the will of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is One.
“In John 10:29, you emphasized that “the Father’s divinity is greater than Jesus humanity.” But, Jesus is saying that the Father has more value than all. In KJV, it says that the Father is greater than all, not only than Jesus humanity but all. For sure, the Holy Spirit is also included there. I believe I am not offending the Holy Spirit if I say that the Father is greater because the Holy Spirit is under the Father. The Lord Jesus Christ, the Son can send the Holy Spirit. According from the principle of the Gospel, John 13:16,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.”
The very next verse which is verse of Joh 10:30 says, “I and the Father are one”. In John 13:16 Jesus refers again to His humanity. This verse speaks of equality. See also Mat 10:24 and Luke 22:27 which repeat this theme.
“Clearly, this conforms to my explanations. The Lord Jesus Christ was sent by the Father for great purposes to do the will of the Father (John 3:16-17), can the Lord Jesus Christ be greater than the Father or even equalwith the Father?”
Yes, of course He can be equal even in doing His Father's will.
“You are right that the Father and the Son are one, in other words they have unity. But I am sorry to say, brother, you misinterpreted the verses. It is not right to conclude that the Father and the Son have perfect equality there. The Father is still greater than the Son because the verses explained that: the servant is not greater than his lord, neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. I am not inventing, brother, because these were written.
(John 12:49) “For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”
The Father and the Son are one since the words you can hear from the Son are also the words of the Father. They have unity there. The Son is just being commanded and cannot be equal with the Father conforming to the rest of the verses I showed.”
It is ridiculous to conclude that if Jesus did His Father’s will that He is not equal to the Father.
“The one sending is greater than the one being sent. The Holy Spirit is also being sent by the Father for important purposes (John 14:26; Romans 8:26; etc.). By biblical implication, the Father is greater than His Son and His Holy Spirit. The three Persons has really different purposes, but the Father, the Creator is the greatest.”
Again, doing the will of the Father by Jesus or by the Holy Spirit does not detract from the equality of the the three persons of the Trinity. The verses you provide simply shows a unity in purpose and does not even suggest inequality.
“Opposing your explanation, the biblical verses and explanations I showed to you brother suggest inequality. May I repeat this, (John 13:16) “The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.” And this one (Luke 22:27 ESV) “For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.” Again, these imply inequality. Unity does not directly mean perfect equality. The Father is greater than the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son is greater than the Holy Spirit. The Father is the greatest among the three Persons.”
In Luke 22:27 Jesus was instructing the disciples and was not referring to Himself of having inequality with the Father.
“Brother, you still do not have a strong proof that the perfect equality of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is biblical. You said that it was a doctrine of a council of the Catholic church that is why it must be followed but the Catholic church cannot be the authority.”
Matthew 18:18 refutes your claim.
Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church
2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth.
Matt. 1:1 - Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven.
Luke 1:32 - the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given "the throne of His father David."
Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven." While most Protestants argue that the kingdom of heaven Jesus was talking about is the eternal state of glory (as if Peter is up in heaven letting people in), the kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. In using the term "keys," Jesus was referencing Isaiah 22 (which is the only place in the Bible where keys are used in the context of a kingdom).
Isaiah 22:22 - in the old Davidic kingdom, there were royal ministers who conducted the liturgical worship and bound the people in teaching and doctrine. But there was also a Prime Minister or chief steward of the kingdom who held the keys. Jesus gives Peter these keys to His earthly kingdom, the Church. This representative has decision-making authority over the people - when he shuts, no one opens. See also Job 12:14.
Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.
Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. Peter's "keys" fit into the "gates" of Hades which also represent Peter’s pastoral authority over souls.
Matt. 23:2-4 - the "binding and loosing" terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees "bind" heavy burdens but won't move ("loose") them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.
Matt. 13:24-52 -Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is the universal Church on earth, not the eternal state of glory. Therefore, the keys to the "kingdom of heaven" refers to the authority over the earthly Church.
Matt. 25:1-2 - Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish, further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth. This kingdom cannot refer to the heavenly kingdom because there are no fools in heaven!
Mark 4:26-32 - again, the "kingdom of God" is like the seed which grows and develops. The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church.
Luke 9:27 - Jesus says that there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the "kingdom of God." This kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Christ, which Jesus established by His death and resurrection on earth.
Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree (not the heavenly state of glory which is boundless and infinite).
Matt 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:21 - these verses provide more examples of the " kingdom of God" as the kingdom on earth which is in our midst.
1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the "kingdom of God" usually means an earthly kingdom.
1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.
Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.
Luke 12:41-42 - when Peter asks Jesus if the parable of the master and the kingdom was meant just for the apostles or for all people, Jesus rhetorically confirms to Peter that Peter is the chief steward over the Master's household of God. "Who then, (Peter) is that faithful and wise steward whom his master will make ruler over His household..?"
Ezek. 37:24-25 - David shall be king over them forever and they will have one shepherd. Jesus is our King, and Peter is our earthly shepherd. (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-II)
“I also believe that Jesus will never be a liar since it is impossible for God to lie.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Mat 16:18)
“The teaching that Peter was the rock upon which the church was built is somewhat confusing. The verse was misinterpreted, Peter is not the rock that Jesus is talking about by analyzing it grammatically.”
I see nothing confusing about this teaching at all. He said this to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 22. Had He not fulfilled this prophecy it would indicate that Jesus is not the true Messiah as this was a foremost prophecy of the Messiah. This explains it in more detail here on my blog:
Actually grammatically and in every other way it is impossible in the context of Scripture to deny that the name change of simon to Peter is significant as it represents a transformation of Simon to the prime minister of Christ’s Church fulfilling Isaiah 22.
“ Jesus did not say that Peter is the rock, Jesus said “upon this rock” not “upon you”. Peter cannot be the rock upon which the church was built, simply because he was part of the church, built upon the foundation stone who is Christ.”
This “Rock” clearly must refer to St. Peter as this is the only way this can be interpreted to be consistent with biblical prophecy.
“(Eph 2:20-22) “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The Apostles (one of whom was Peter) were built upon the foundation, Jesus Christ himself. There is no other foundation than Christ. (1Cor 3:11) “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Let us look at the teaching of our Lord about His Church. Using construction vernacular He said that He was the King, High Priest, and Cornerstone of the Church. The beginning of a firm/solid/ foundation is always the cornerstone which holds together the elements of the construction.
He appointed St. Peter as the prime minister of the Church fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah that the Messiah would ordain an enduring office of prime minister and that that prime minister would be given the keys to the kingdom. This is exactly what He did when appointing St. Peter. The keys represented his office and the authority of that office which was to have the power of the king in ministering to the kingdom and the authority to teach and proclaim the will of the king. (Isa 22:20-25)
The disciples are called the 12 foundation stones (Rev 21:14) of the Church continuing illustrating the permanence of what God is building. It is not a foundation of sand that is temporary but is of an enduring nature to last until the Parousia and strong enough to withstand the tumultuous attacks of hell that would surely attempt to prevail against the Church using every method of attack from within and from without. Even the world would hate that which our Lord had built just as it hated Him. This enduring leadership is the foundation of a Church that can truly be called the "pillar and foundation of the truth" because that which Christ has ordained shall never pass away or be absorbed into the world but will for all time remain heavenly as the ark for humanity where all may be saved just as the ark of Noah was the type for the Church which must endure within the evil of the world to bring the faithful into the promised land of heaven.
Last of all, the Church stands as testimony to the veracity of Christ and His promises to humanity. The Church is the fulfillment of Scriptures in its enduring quality as well as it being that pillar or bulwark of truth in a world filled with lies, temptation and sins that will murder souls to Christ and decrease the harvest. Its unity in His will with faith and oneness of its mission to proclaim the Gospel after 2000 years is a miracle in itself but also it proclaims the divinity of our Lord where in His prophetic vision, competence of His leadership as the builder of His Church and His promises of His Church makes it truly a city on a hill that cannot be hid (Mat 5:14) frustrating its detractors and more truly the "gates of hell".
“It is right that Jesus established His church and but I do not mean that it is the Catholic church. They call it the Church of God which the apostles preached and that church was built about 2000 years ago.”
If you do not mean that the Church is the Catholic Church then you are not understanding biblical teaching. There is no evidence historically, patristically or biblically to there being any other Church founded by Christ but the Catholic Church. Only prejudice and ignorance of these three sources could keep you from this biblical truth.
“Everything about the church, the name, the outline, the doctrines, the tenet, the forbidden things, everything has been described and it was all written in the bible.”
No, everything about the Church is not written in the Bible. The Church was a living witness to Christ’s teaching so there was no need for everything to be written. Jesus never told anyone to write Scriptures and it would seem that a reasonable person would conclude that if the Bible was the sole rule of faith and practice that he would have ordered everything written down but there is no evidence that He ever did so.
Our Lord after his resurrection and before He ascended to heaven called together the disciples on a hill in Galilee and told them to teach all nations. Christ instructed them to teach all the doctrines, commandments and laws that He had taught to them. It is significant to note that these instructions are not constricted by the lifetimes of the disciples but was to be taught for all times which would be completed at the Parousia. This meant that the disciples were to have successors and that their oral teaching would be for all times protected by Christ which extended to their successors. In this way Christ assured that truth would be taught for all time to humanity. This was the great commission.
To those deep in Scriptures it seems quite odd that there are some who think that the disciples fulfilled their commission given to all by writing Scriptures and that they left no successors to continue the fullness of truth and the authority given by Christ in that commission. If this was the intent of our Lord it is odd that not all the disciples did what some suppose our Lord commanded which is to write Scriptures. In fact, only five disciples continued their teaching by writing Scripture. To those who believe that it is the Scriptures that continue the great commission then it is difficult to ignore that less than half of the disciples followed Christ’s commission. The disciple Matthew wrote a Gospel. John wrote a Gospel and three epistles. Peter wrote two epistles and James and Jude wrote one apiece. If the written Word was so important in Christ’s structure of the Church then it would be logical that there would be at least one epistle from Jesus; perhaps in which He would instruct us to give the written Word His only authority and not the 12 disciples as was His instructions in the great commission. But of course, it was obviously not His intent for His teaching to be spread only from written means but instead through the solid foundation He had built on which the disciples would continue to build with their successors which passed on the chrism from Christ through the disciples and their successors which has resulted in infallible truth for all times.
Another oddity for those who believe only in the written Word is why the Church founded by Christ existed for only a half century as a teaching Church and then is replaced by inspired books alone?
With changing circumstances it would seem reasonable that there be someone or some authority that can apply the apostolic teaching to the change of circumstances lest there be chaotic frustration instead of the application of truth. Take for example the doctrines; these doctrines may be studied with an almost equal danger of error as truth if there is no infallible teacher. An infallible authority would not restrict an enlightened development of truth for those who are seeking the question of what Christ meant in His teaching. Without it there is great possibility and indeed a certainty of error because there is not a word of Christ’s teaching that has not been subject to diverse interpretations. Many of these interpretations are compelling either by their scholarship or their application but are in contradiction of one another. Consequently the following question is illustrated by these facts; how are we to know the truth as these words surly are not enough for the truth to be known? Therefore it is necessary to have an infallible teacher to separate the diversity of opinions into the truth of Christ’s teaching. There must be revelation to satisfy the seeking soul instead of a growing set of diverse opinions and confusion. So, there must be an infallible teacher with the authority from Christ and of Christ as were the disciples for the truth to be known. The question is to those following Sola Scripture is whether the truth is essential or does it remain forever elusive depending on individual interpretation?
I believe the Scriptures demonstrate just how essential Jesus believed the truth to be. Before His death He gave certain men the authority to teach. He sent out the 72 disciples to teach with His authority. He said to them as well as the original 12, “He that hears you, hears me” which illustrates a transfer of the teaching by oral means to the Church across time to ensure the truth to all generations. It is through the oral teaching that the truth is found by the authority of Christ for truth. That truth is contained within the leadership of the Church and is today the Magisterium which is made up of the successors of those original disciples continuing the chrism given to them by Christ.
“ Like what the Apostle Paul said in 1Cor 4:6, that we must not go beyond to what they have written.”
St. Paul is referring to several OT warnings about arrogance which was prevalent in Corinth such as 1:19,31 and 3:19-20 previously in this letter. He has no intent of restricting Christian doctrine and moral teaching set forth in the books of the Bible as Sola Scriptura is an untenable position as personal interpretation can mislead one into error. This position of yours would not be consistent with St. Pauls other teachings and would indeed cause contradiction within his biblical teaching . For example St. Paul teaches that the inspired preaching of the apostles has the same veracity as that which is written.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NRSVCE)
13 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.
2 Thessalonians 2:15(NRSVCE)
15 So then, brothers and sisters,[a] stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
6 Now we command you, beloved,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are[b] living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they[c] received from us.
“ And in order for us to be saved, we must accept that in full and we must affiliate with them. “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Ephesians 3:6). Of course, as Gentiles, we can be fellow heirs and members of the same body (described in Colossians 1:18) by the gospel. The church of God has been built a long ago so that what we should do today is to have fellowship.
(1John 1:3) “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
(1John 1:4) “And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.”
The apostles wrote those things they have seen and heard. And if we accept those things they have taught, then, we will have fellowship with the apostles and fellowship with the Son and the Father. Therefore, there will be something like a connection between each other.”
You are quite confused by this biblical teaching. All this is stating is that the Gentiles have the same opportunity for salvation as the Jews
“If you are claiming that the Catholic church is that church being referred, then, I must say that Jesus is not referring to the Catholic church. Probably, a different person or people might have established the Catholic church because of its contradiction to the structure of the church of God, contradiction to what they believe and other things.”
There is absolutely no contradiction between the Catholic Church and what is written in Scripture about the Church. The writers of the New Testament were all Catholic Christians writing about the Catholic Church. Pardon me for saying this but you are speaking nothing but prejudicial and ignorant nonsense.
“ Like what I said before, everything about the church of God has been written, even its composition or structure. (1Cor 12:28) “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, of tongues.” God set some offices in the church, first the apostles, the prophets. But as time passed, at the time of Apostle Paul, more offices are added. (Eph 4:11) “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” That is the structure of the church.”
Correct and first among these ministerial gifts is apostleship as they were witnesses to all Jesus said and did. Their successors still lead the Church today as they did in the 1st century. It is this firm foundation that is built upon by the apostles of our Lord of whom the first 12 are the foundation stones of the Churhc and St. Peter is the prime minister among them according to the written Word of God.
“You know, there is NO POPE in the structure of the church of God! Do you know why? It’s because it is prohibited for them to call that way. (Mat 23:9) “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” That’s why, you can’t find in the bible, where the apostles were called as Father. The Catholics call Peter as a “pope” and that’s a heresy. Just an information, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the word “pope” was derived from a Greek word that means “father” and that title was first mentioned by St. Enodius (d. 521). They invented that title about 500 years after the death of the apostles. Did you see that, brother? Therefore, the office of the pope is not from Jesus Christ. And therefore, this is one the things why the Catholic church is not founded by Jesus.”
I wish I could be kinder to you but your statement here is nothing more or less than absolute nonsense. It is something someone would say that is either ignorant of Scriptures or trying to mislead others from the truth.
From the early Church we find that clergy were addressed as father. There are those with little knowledge of history or hermeneutical discipline such as understanding Scriptures within context, who believe that the Bible prohibits one from calling a priest father. The words they rely on come directly from Christ:
(Mat 23:9 DRB) And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.
Keeping the verse in context let us look at the verse preceding this verse:
(Mat 23:8 DRB) But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master: and all you are brethren.
Rabbi means teacher and the Latin word for teacher is doctor so anyone using these terms as well are violating the literal interpretation of the text.
Let us look at the verse after verse 9:
(Mat 23:10 DRB) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ.
There is no way that the interpretation could be correct if one reads and understands the Matthew passage in context. He is clearly teaching that one should not look to any human authority as our teacher, father, master, doctor or other titles of respect but instead give to God those things that are reserved for Him. Do you also refuse to call people doctor, teacher, professor, mister, or master? All of these are forbidden as well if we are to accept a literal understanding.
Context also requires that we investigate what the other Scriptures say as well as the understanding of these words by those who followed Christ. There are many instances where the writers of the New Testament contradict a literal understanding of not calling a man father, teacher or master. Consider the following verses:
(Act 5:34 DRB) But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while.
(Col 4:1 DRB) Masters, do to your servants that which is just and equal: knowing that you also have a master in heaven.
(2Ti 1:11 DRB) Wherein I am appointed a preacher and an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles.
Let us examine the statements of St. Stephen to see if he understood Christ to be speaking literally….In is soliloquy (Acts Chapter 7) before the Sanhedrin before his stoning to martyrdom he used the term father in referring to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as fathers and also to his Israelite ancestors as fathers.
St. John the beloved disciple also did not understand Christ to be teaching literally as we can see in the following verses:
(1Jn 2:13 DRB) I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.
(1Jn 2:14 DRB) I write unto you, babes, because you have known the Father. I write unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.
(1Jn 2:15 DRB) Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.
(1Jn 2:16 DRB) For all that is in the world is the concupiscence of the flesh and the concupiscence of the eyes and the pride of life, which is not of the Father but is of the world.
St. Paul also had a different understanding of Christ’s words than the literalists:
(1Co 4:14 DRB) I write not these things to confound you: but I admonish you as my dearest children.
(1Co 4:15 DRB) For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.
(1Co 4:16 DRB) Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye followers of me as I also am of Christ.
St. Paul was speaking of the fact that he is called to shepherd the flock as are all priests. We not only give birth to the Christian through Baptism but also nourish the faithful with the Holy Eucharist and God’s Word. We care for them and bind their spiritual wounds through the delivery of the Sacraments. It is no wonder that we are called father as we care for our Church family as a father cares for his own family. If Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 22 then He cannot be the Messiah. Is this your intent and position? You do know that such a position destroys the Gospel and the veracity of Christ as the Messiah prophesied if He did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies as you erroneously claim? The Bible completely contradicts your unscholarly claim. Jesus did indeed ordain the Holy office of prime minister which the Pope holds which fulfilled prophecy.
“I know that I am not expert about the history of “The Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church”.”
I think you have already made that completely apparent by your previous statements. Your knowledge of the founding of Christ’s Church and the history of the early Church is profoundly lacking.
“But I’ve heard that their official name just begun in 1870, which is many years after the church of God was established.”
The name Catholic was first used to describe the Church in Antioch around the end of the first century before that it was just referred to as “the Church”. The name “Roman Catholic” is a pejorative name given to Christ’s own Church by the Protestant heretics. Your sect was not founded until 1954 by Avelino Santiago instead of Christ like the Catholic Church.
“I’ve heard also that if you will study the history of the Catholic church and the history of the Roman empire, they have relations to each other.”
Yes, the Church benefitted by the Roman Emperor Constantine proclaiming the Edict of Milan” which ended the persecution and murders of Catholics which allowed the Christian Church to expand because the faithful no longer had to face persecution for their faith. Later Constantine’s son became the first Emperor to make Catholic Christianity the state religion. Praise be to God for the ending of this persecution that murdered all but one of the apostles and countless others by the Roman Empire. This was truly a miracle from God to change a Pagan’s heart to stop the persecution of all Catholic Christians even though he never was a Christian but a Arian like yourself.
“The power of Roman empire have influenced those people who pretended that they were followers of Christ. This fulfills the prophecy of the Apostle Paul.
(1Tim 4:1-3) “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
I would assume that you are accusing Christ’s own Church of these transgressions. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Church influenced the Roman Empire and not the other way around as you suggest. The Church continued then and today in fulfilling Jesus’ promise of an enduring Church that the gates of hell will never prevail against. By your ridiculous conclusion you are attacking Christ’s veracity and calling Him an incompetent or a liar in founding His Church that He claimed would endure and that not even the gates of hell would prevail against . Your claim is that the gates of hell has indeed prevailed. You are woefully deceived. 1 Tim 4:1-3 is most prophetic in prophesying the Protestant rebellion of the 15th century and is certainly NOT descriptive of the Catholic Church in any way which continues to fulfill Christ’s promise of an enduring Church.
“One of the signs of those people who are pretenders to be followers of God is that they are forbidding to marry (priests are forbidden to marry) and commanding to abstain from meats (this is very obvious in Catholics in their special days).”
No one in the Catholic Church is forbidden to marry but instead marriage is always encouraged. Priests make a vow to God to serve the Church in celibacy which is recommended by both Jesus and St. Paul for those who can endure it. (Mat 19:11, 1Cor 7) Celibacy is a self imposed discipline and not a doctrine of the Church.There are hundreds, possibly thousands of married priests in the Catholic Church. Out of the 23 Rites of the Catholic Church only the Latin Rite chooses only from those who have made a vow of celibacy. Even in the Latin Rite there are married priests who never made a vow to God of celibacy.
There has never been a prohibition against eating meat but instead the Church has recommended fasting as a sign to God of our unity and devotion to Him.
“The development of the Catholic traditions fulfills the prophecy of the Apostle Paul to those who departed from the true Christian faith but pretends to be Christians that teaches different doctrines.”
The Church has never taught anything that is contradictory to Scriptures in any way. A better example of a departure from the sound doctrines of Jesus, His Church and the Bible would be those who teach that Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity of the one God which your man-made sect proclaims. The Bible does not teach polytheism as you claim your sect teaches calling Jesus a God not equal to the other two persons of the Trinity of one God. God cannot be divided.
“Another proof that the Catholic church is not the church founded by Christ is this. (2Cor 11:7) “Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?” The Catholic church collects money or fees from people when they will baptize a baby, when they will preach, when a wedding is done there is a fee, etc. The apostle Paul preached the gospel of God without collecting money to them.”
Yes, from the beginning of the Church is has been supported financially by its members voluntarily. St. Paul’s ministry was supported by those he served as an apostle of our Lord.
“The Catholic church claims that Peter was the first “pope”, then followed by successors, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, and so on. And the Catholic claims that the chain or successions was not interrupted so that their church is the true church until now and the Pope is the infallible authority on all matter of Catholic faith.”
That is correct, the Church has had the continuous leadership of the successors of St. Peter as Christ established the Church. The Papal office is an example of the enduring Church that Christ promised. This truth testifies of Christ’s promises of an enduring Church.
“But have you heard about the anti-popes? I’ve heard there’s a long list of anti-popes that lead the Catholic church and some of them are heretic popes like Pope Alexander VI. So how could this be still from God? Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church He founded. But evil people reigned in that church a long time ago.”
Certainly there have been bad Popes in history and some of them may have been evil. But, despite this the Church has never departed from the truth and no false doctrine has ever come from these bad and possibly evil Popes. This says volumes about the Holy Spirit protecting the Church from error as He promised. this is encouraging to true Christians to know that despite the evil hearts of men that the Holy Spirit has kept the Church from error and apostasy. Praise be to God.
Also the present pope of Catholics today seems like heretic also. The pope has made statements contradicting the Catholic faith. And it is not a rumor. This link below is just one of them.
If Pope Francis indeed said these things and those concluding statements are supported in context then he was in error. Popes make mistakes and are entitled to their opinion but for such statements to be binding on the Church they must be proclaimed ex cathedra with the support of the Magisterium.
“By the way, I now belong to the Members of the Church of God, International presided by the evangelist, Bro. Eli Soriano.
Thanks for reading, brother.
I will pray that you and others are able to escape the lies of this heretical man made sect. God bless!