19 July, 2009

Discussion with LottaLou about the Church, Authority, the Antichrist and Christian Unity

(LottaLou) It is being self righteous to write that my Pastor is keeping others from Christ's Church.

(Cristoiglesia) Is your pastor encouraging his members to go to the one Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church, which according to Scriptures is the enduring Church free from apostasy which is the pillar and foundation of the truth? Or is he one of those false teachers that those with itching ears gather around because they can no longer endure sound doctrine?

(LottaLou) The Lord Jesus was specific to my Pastor to have a non denominational Church. One that is open to the Holy Spirit and is based on the Bible as Gods written Word & Truth.

(Cristoiglesia) Really, so Christ did not mean what He prayed to the Father that we all be one in His Church as He and the Father are one. Instead you claim He is inspiring others to go against His prayer and divide the Church.
Are you saying that Jesus is attempting to be the father of confusion? BTW, St Ignatius the disciple of St. John and of St. Peter defined the Church as those who gather around the bishop in the first century of the Church. What bishop in apostolic succession does this pastor represent since he calls his sect a “Church”.

(LottaLou) My Pastor has preached that we follow after the Spirit above the written letter.

(Cristoiglesia) Really, did He also teach you that this teaching is the teaching of the ancient heresy of Gnosticism that was spoken of by St. Paul as a threat to the Church? All of the Gnostic books were banned by the Church in the fifth century by Pope St. Gelasius.

(LottaLou)Also to consider satan who tempted Jesus Christ with scripture. The first of satan's temptation was to tempt Jesus to doubt He was the Son of God.
For us born of God, satan tempts us to doubt we are God's child. Then he can say scripture and twist it.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, Satan did use Scripture to get Jesus to jump and depend on His Father to save Him but Satan left out the fact that God protects us from accidents and not intentional acts. Jesus knew better. Jesus never doubted that He was His Fathers Son and God incarnate. I agree that Satan can use Scripture to His advantage.

(LottaLou) Pastor Jack was called to Pastor a Church that in non denominational, and that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. So when I go to the River of Life, I am going to Christ's Church.

(Cristoiglesia) No, you are going to Pastor Jack’s church and not Christ’s Church that was founded by Christ with Himself as the cornerstone and the disciples as the 12 foundation stones. Pastor Jack is not mentioned as one of the stones. He is teaching outside of the authority of Christ and His Church.

(LottaLou) And Jesus has told me that He has many copies of the Key to the Kingdom of Heaven.

(Cristoiglesia)..No, there is one only because Jesus founded only one Church. If you were told this in a prophetic message it was from a source in opposition of Christ with a spirit of confusion.

When we Catholics wrote the NT we did not write it to be used outside of the Church but to supplement the fullness of God's Word consisting of the written and the oral passed down to the faithful through apostolic succession.

(LottaLou) The New Testament was written by Holy Men moved by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Cannon has some additional teaching that changes Gods message of Grace sometimes. I don't agree with those. And also the apocryphal writings in the Catholic Cannon. I have read some of that and something in them always contradicts Gods already tried, tested & found true Word in the Holy Bible.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes the New Testament was written by Catholic Christian men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Christian Canon was decided at the three African Synods in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. The Canon was decided under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the authority given by Christ to His Church the Catholic Church. The so-called additional teaching you speak of is contained in the OT Canon from which Jesus and the disciples quoted. None of the Holy Scriptures changes any of the teaching of Jesus or the disciples about grace or anything else. The written Word of God is reliable for teaching and for truth.
There are no apocryphal books in the Canon of Scriptures ever used by the Church, you are opposing the Deuterocanonicals which as I said have always been a part of Scripture and are a part of the OT Canon quoted by Jesus. If it is good enough for Jesus it should be good enough for His Church. The Deuterocanonicals ARE God’s word and no one has the authority to remove them. The Protestant condensed Bible without the fullness of God’s written Word is only about two centuries old and its use is just another error in Protestant teaching.

(LottaLou)The Holy Spirit was poured down on the Day of Pentecost. And it is Gods Spirit who gifts us to preach the Kingdom of God and God's saving Grace in God given authority & power. More than Peter was told to preach the Gospel to every nation.

(Cristoiglesia) All Christians are responsible for the great commission of our Lord to preach the Gospel.

Come to the Church for the fullness of truth. Remember Jesus prayed in the Garden before His arrest, Father let them be one as I and the Father are one. Can there be any mistaken His will?

(LottaLou) 1Jn2:27 But the anointing that ye have received of Him abides in you, and ye need not that anyone teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as He has taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

(Cristoiglesia) If you apply the Scripture that you just quoted to the preceding Scriptures you will find that those being instructed here are those in unity with Christ’s Church and not those outside of that visible unity. In verse 18 it speaks of the last hour referring to the imminence of the coming of our Lord or as St. Paul said the consummation of the ages when the Lord comes in judgment. It speaks of many antichrists which have come. It says that these antichrists came out of the unity of Christ’s Church and in doing so they no longer belong to us or are a part of us for if they did they would have remained. Could this not describe the rebellious Protestants who left the unity of the Church? Certainly they are enemies of Christ and His Church. The Great Church father St. Cyprian said that all are to be called anti-Christ’s who have separated themselves from the unity and charity of the Catholic Church.

In verse 19 it is made plain that those who left the Church were not of the Church for the proof of being in the Church is to continue belonging to the Church. In verse 20 the instruction is that those who are the true faithful are those in unity with the Church And not those outside the Church but those under the influence of the approved pastors through apostolic succession who receive the grace of the Holy Spirit which is promised to the Church. It is the Church that has all the necessary knowledge and that thee is no need to seek instruction elsewhere. The following verses talk about the antichrist being one who denies the Father and the Son as identification of the one but the many antichrists prepare the way.

Verse 27 speaks of those false teachers called the antichrists who wish to seduce the faithful from the truth within the Church who usurp the authority of the Church for their own authority. But the Scripture warns to abide in the one that has instructed you in the truth which is God’s own true Church the Catholic Church. So, according to the Scripture you provided there is no anointing of teaching outside of His Church but instead just the opposite in seductive heresies taught by the antichrists.

(LottaLou) My Pastor has preached that we have a teacher above our teachers.
So I ask God. The Holy Spirit gives me understanding & Pastor preaches the answer & Holy Spirit confirms what was preached.

(Cristoiglesia) The problem is that your pastor has no authority to preach or to teach as the Scripture you provided in 1 John 2 but instead by his separation he preaches and teaches in the spirit of the antichrist 1 John 2:27 is a warning not to be seduced by such teaching.

Come to the Church for the fullness of truth. Remember Jesus prayed in the Garden before His arrest, Father let them be one as I and the Father are one.

(LottaLou)It is written to let the tares grow with the wheat. To me the tares are sown of the devil and are false doctrines that try to mix with the Word of God (wheat). You can see that in Revelations to the 7Churches, that false doctrines attempted to sneak into the Church. And Jesus hated that. What Jesus wants is our hearts restored with Him and His Father.

(Cristoiglesia) Yes, of course, He wants us to be one in His Church where the fullness of truth is found and to reject the teaching of those claiming to be of the Church but remain outside of the Church. St. John clearly states in 1 John 2 that we are to trust those inside the Church and the pastors and teachers who are valid pastors in succession from the disciples. They and the Church are the truth and where our trust in the truth should lie and not with those teachers outside of the Church who are the antichrists. Restoration comes with those who are in Christ returning or remaining in His Church the Catholic Church.

(LottaLou) So I don't see that going to a Catholic Church is going to teach me the fullness of Truth. Because they have some tares in it. And so do other nonCatholic Christian Churches. This is what divides the Church. And when thfe Church judges the other Churches critically, then the gifts in both Churches aren't shared with one another. So the Church is basically crippled. The Unity of the Church hasn't come in yet. This has yet to come to pass. There are Ministries of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers to edify one another until the fullness of the Body of Christ and that we agree in One Faith. And that would be the Foundational teachings of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Seed of the Woman (virgin Mother Mary), The Lamb of God without Blemish, the Resurrection and the Eternal Life.

1Jn5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him Who is True and we are in Him Who Is True, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and eternal life.

(Cristoiglesia) You just provided scriptures that say that those outside of His Church are certainly false teachers called antichrists preparing the way for the antichrist. You say there are tares within Christ’s Church and I would not disagree but the Church has Christ’s promise of the truth and there is no teacher outside of His Church that has such a promise to assure us of the truth. Jesus said His Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth and it is in that we can trust and not the teaching of me claiming authority not given by Christ. Anyone can claim such authority but the Bible says that true authority does NOT come from outside of His Church. Sharing these “gifts” as you call them outside of the Church would only serve to dilute the truth and not further empower the work of the Church and its testimony to the world. The Church must remain the light unto the world and the shining city on a hill. The Church must be the ark from a sinful world where the truth can be found. That is why it is Christ’s Church the Catholic Church only that Jesus gave His promises to and the leadership which is necessary for the enduring Church free from error and with the fullness of truth. When one is full of truth there is no room for deviation.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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