18 July, 2009

Discussion with LottaLou about the Eucharist

(Cristoiglesia) If you're receiving the blessed Sacrament without discerning the real, actual & substantial Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord you are committing a most egregious sin. Or if receiving in a Protestant church you are being disrespectful to our Lord by refusing His great feast for a man made desecration then you are also sinning against our Lord.

(LottaLou) How do you know how other Churches take communion. I realize that some do make this mistake & suffer the conscequences.

(Cristoiglesia)I was a Protestant for 50 years and know how other churches take communion. I also know that none of them have a valid clergy and that most of them take a Zwinglian view of the Sacrament. As a result they are doing a symbolic representation of the truly real and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord. Our Lord and St. Paul confirms we are to eat His Body and Drink His Blood to have eternal life. Protestants simply do not have this and really do not desire it. They desire instead a desecration which is a mockery of His great feast. They are not at the foot of the Cross as Christ commanded but remembering what Christ has done rather than being there at the one sacrifice for all humanity. He said, “Do this” and Protestants refuse and mock His miracle of “anamnesis”. St. Paul said that we are to discern (recognize His truly real and substantial Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) or we bring condemnation on ourselves and as a result our soul can even die. How can anyone believe that ones soul could die by not realizing that something is a mockery or a fake of the real thing?

(LottaLou)But I believe not discerning the body of Christ is discerning what Jesus did for us, and also that we are part of the Body of Christ. Since the verses you wrote 1Co.11:26-32+. In verse 31 it stresses judging ourselves (in regarding who we are in Christ and also how we treat our sisters/brothers in Christ).

(Cristoiglesia) You are trying to read into Scriptures an understanding that matches your prejudice. This is a hermeneutical error called eisegesis. When St. Paul says to discern the Body and Blood He is speaking of the reality of what is before us in Christ’s miracle. It is what He is doing for us at that moment and not something in the past as at that time the sacrifice on the cross is a present reality in the real Sacrament consecrated by the valid priest in apostolic succession. The communion of the Corpus Christi is those who discern the miracle and not call in a symbolic act denying the miracle of our Lord. The judgment we do of ourselves is to be sure that we are in a state of grace to receive His corporeal reality and to be the temple of the Lord and not how we treat others.

(LottaLou)But you are accusing communion of being a man made desecration when not taken in a Catholic Church.

(Cristoiglesia) Exactly! It can be nothing else!

(LottaLou)So, why do you think you are god to judge the hearts of Christians in other Churches who take communion? Do you have a judgmental log of spiritual blindness in your eye?

(Cristoiglesia) I am not judging anyone; it has nothing to do with one’s heart but in being obedient to our Lord and His commandment. They don’t want it and refuse it. Jesus said to eat His Body and to drink His Blood. He did not say to mock His commandment by creating a symbolic mockery instead.

Communion is being obedient to God but to create a symbolic man-made presentation to replace His great feast is idolatry in the worst sense and shows a lack of indwelling of the Holy Spirit to not recognize that such is a man-made desecration of Christ’s commandment in place of obedience. Such actions are not communion with one another but a mocking of Christ’s commandment.

(LottaLou) So are you saying communion is good but a symbolic man made presentation to replace what Jesus meant isn't?

(Cristoiglesia) Exactly!

(LottaLou)I agree that some Churches (like Mormons) are making a mockery out of it. But most Churches & Church Ministers who are anointed by Gods Spirit do honor Jesus. My Church does communion once a month. And there is prayer and self examination... But some in the congregation may not discern the Body of Christ & so would suffer the conscequences.

(Cristoiglesia)The Mormons do not make any more a mockery out of it than Protestants. Protestant ministers are not really clergy but lay people. While a lay person may be anointed by the Spirit they have no authority to consecrate the great feast of our Lord. They cannot act in persona Christi. Therefore it does NOT honor our Lord to present a symbolic mockery of His great feast. How could anyone discern the Body and the Blood except to recognize that it is not there?

(LottaLou)So I respect your concern, but not your condemnation. It seems you judge others without really knowing what they do. Jesus Christ is the one who judges our hearts individually and if we don't do things correctly, we are chastened of the Lord so we won't be condemned with the world. 2Cor.11:32.

(Cristoiglesia) I am not judging or condemning anyone nor do I have that authority. It is not a matter of not doing what He is commanding correctly but the fact is you have no authority to do it at all. He said that unless you eat His Body and drink His Blood that you have no life (eternal) in you. He really meant this. Remember He did not run after those who left Him at Capernaum (John 6) and say come on back, I was just speaking metaphorically. No, He instead told them that they were to “gnaw” (trogo in the Greek) on His Flesh. He turned instead to the 12 disciples and asked if they wanted to leave also because of His hard teaching and St. Peter answered for the 12, “Where else shall we go, for you have the words of eternal life.”

So yes, it is bigger than being His Body and Blood because of the eternal consequences of the sin and of refusing the grace that our Lord offers. The Body of Christ, meaning the invisible Church are not those disobedient to our Lord but instead those outside His will and His grace.

(LotaLou) I don't understand this part...The Body of Christ, meaning the invisible Church are not those disobedient to our Lord but instead those outside His will and His grace.

(Cristoiglesia) I meant to say “The Body of Christ, meaning the invisible Church are not those who are disobedient to our Lord but instead those outside of His will and Grace in refusing to receive His Sacrament and the grace He provides through His Sacrament.

(LottaLou)The Body of Christ are all the redeemed Christians (in heaven or on earth), whether in or outside Gods will. When we get outside Gods will, then we suffer Godly discipline.

(Cristoiglesia)If you are defining “redeemed” as a synonym to “saved” then you are incorrect. The Body of Christ (Corpus Christi) are those of us in the Communion of Saints. They may be indeed redeemed but the Church militant who have not yet realized the heavenly hope are within the Communion of Saints and the Corpus Christi.

Denying the possibility of Jesus performing a miracle is bringing into question His divinity. The fact is that the Bible answers this delimma you are attempting to make. Jesus said, "Do this in Anamnesis (remembrance) of me. Anamnesis is a word that denotes a miracle transcending time& place. It does not mean to recall a past event as remembrance describes but instead by a miracle of our Lord we are present at the one sacrifice for all while the miracle to us brings present the past to the disciples at the Last Supper the miracle brings the future present.

(LottaLou)That makes things too compclicated. We are remembering the miracle of Jesus Christ shed blood for remission of our sins (past, now& future)& body broken for us. Discerning that 'we' are not our own, but purchased with a high price.

(Cristoiglesia) It appears complicated because you are trying to use carnal reason and Jesus said that His commandment could only be understood through the Spirit which is our faith in Him. This is what St. Peter was referring to when He answered our Lord that He had the words of eternal life. You are looking at it like the proto-Protestants in John 6 that left our Lord because of this hard teaching that requires a spiritual sense of discernment. The fact is that we are not remembering or recalling what He did for us but we are there with Him in His miracle of anamnesis. He said, “Do this in Anamnesis of me”. If we are there we do not have to recall anything but only share in His sacrifice once for all. God bless and thanks for the opportunity to share the miracle of the Eucharist with you. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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