25 July, 2009

(LottaLou) Everyone else is born with sin nature and sin. Since the wages of sin is death, all die physically. None of the Saints are raised up flesh & bone like Jesus raised up yet. Their souls R made spiritual; Only their spiritual souls are in heaven. Not their corruptible body. The body has to be changed in the twinkle of an eye yet.

(Cristoiglesia) I agree that we are all born with the original sin of our first parents. However, I believe that you are forgetting about Elijah who was also raised up to heaven. We can also speculate about Moses as well as the Scriptures suggests that he was assumed into heaven also. So it is not unreasonable that our Lord would do the same for His mother. We also have the same situation as with Moses where there is no grave for the mother of God who was greatly honored by the early Church during her life. So while being unusual, it would be reasonable for Jesus not to want his mother to be corrupted by the results of death.

(Cristoiglesia) Jesus redemptive work transcends time & offers salvation to all past, present and future. The blessed mother simply received this grace at her conception.

(LottaLou)I agree but I don't understand receiving grace at conception.

(Cristoiglesia) We both can agree, I assume, that it is our Lord who provided for our salvific grace. The teaching of the Church from Pentecost onward is that Jesus provided this grace at the conception of the blessed mother of God to prepare her for her role in salvation. It had to be at the moment of conception otherwise original sin would be present as this sin nature is carried by the semen as we discussed before. The Grace applied by God prevented this sin nature by the salvific grace being applied simultaneously with conception. Theologically, it is impossible for God to be born of an impure vessel and the Archangel Gabriel recognized the blessed state of the blessed mother calling her “full of grace”. Being full of grace does not leave room for anything but salvific grace and the angel gives witness to this fact. Within her there was no room for sin or even a sinful nature by God’s grace.

(LottaLou)Specifically, what is the Gnostic beliefs which is the Vineyard sects?

(Cristoiglesia) John Wimber the founder of the Vineyard movement used to say that “God is greater than His Word” and would suggest that revelation does not have to be in accordance with Scripture to be true. Wimber taught that these revelations could indeed be contradictory and still be true. Some speculate this comes from his Quaker roots but His teaching that inner revelation is above or equal to the Word of God came from Quakerism. Is this why he has traces of the belief in the supremacy of the inner revelation over and above the written word? Wimber wrote in his book, "Power Evangelism", Wimber explains:
"God uses our experiences to show us more fully what He teaches us in scripture, many times toppling or altering elements of our theology and world view".
Christian Research Institute says the following about his teaching:
"There appears to be little emphasis on teaching the Bible per se. This lack stands in contrast to the very strong Bible teaching at Calvary Chapel, a church with which The Vineyard was once associated . . .. While Bible teaching is not emphasized enough, the role of experience in the Christian life appears to be somewhat over-emphasized. People in the Vineyard frequently seem to be willing to allow their spiritual experiences be self-authenticating".

(LottaLou)You accused my Pastor as not being called of the LORD and teaching Gnostic beliefs. So what specific Gnostic belief are you referring to?
And you do realize that sometimes what you thought I wrote, I didn't mean... So that is mostly because our writing styles are different.

(Cristoiglesia) I said that no one is called to separate anyone from Christ’s Church. That would never be God’s will because He would be contradicting His own prayer where He prayed that we all be one in His Church like He and the Father are one. He could have been called to teach but not to pastor because that act alone is separating some from Christ’ Church. What you wrote suggest that your pastor taught that revelation is equal to or above God’s Word as if it is an extra biblical revelation that not necessarily has to conform to Scriptural truth. Additionally, You suggested that subjective personal inner experiential revelation is to be trusted equally with Scripture or even above Scripture. As an example, when you have been faced with difficult interpretations during our discussions you have fallen back on inner feelings or “gnosis” as to what is the truth being conveyed by Scripture. This leaves room for great error in my opinion and for the great doctor of the Church St. Irenaeus in His work “Against Heresies”.

(LottaLou) Also, I am learning more about Christianity from reading what you write. So even if I don't agree with everything you write, I still find it interesting.

(Cristoiglesia) Thank you, I feel the same way. Iron sharpens Iron.

God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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