05 October, 2009

Discussion with Steve about his criticism of the Catholic Church

(Steve) In the Council of Trent, the church decreed that they had as much authority as the Bible and that anyone else's interpretion is heresy.

(Cristoiglesia) Correct, it is by Christ’s authority given to the Church that the Church understands that all authority on earth is contained within the Church.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The Bible has no authority except that given by the Church which the Church exercised when the Bible was canonized at the African Synods in the late fourth and early fifth centuries.

The Church also guards against heretical interpretation of Scriptures. Here is what the Council of Trent said in regards to this:

“ Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, —wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,—whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established. (Council of Trent)”

(Steve) In the year 325 AD, the church fabricated the trinity, claiming that Jesus, a righteous prophet who prayed to God, lived as a human dependent on others and, claimed that God has knowledge that He doesn't, was God, blasphemy.

(Cristoiglesia) No, at the Council of Nicaea the Church defended the orthodox teaching of the Trinity against the bishop Arius and his followers who taught that Jesus was not God and was only a man. Jesus is both God and man in all fullness.

(Steve) The popes today are men who live with great wealth but claim to be God's right hand man on Earth, these men are not humble like Jesus lived.

(Cristoiglesia) The Popes have no wealth and are in fact impoverished men lacking material wealth. The live modestly and are the lowest of the servants of God. Jesus did give the keys to St. Peter and these keys are passed on to each successive Pope. So, the pope is truly God’s representative on earth by Christ’s own authority.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

(Steve) The catholics, as well with other christians, rely on a corrupted Bible. The christians translated a translation of the Book, added Paul's writings and, the church itself added a verse in John to prove the trinity. My beef with all christians is their reliance on Paul, in my opinion the founder of Christianity.

(Cristoiglesia) That is a common Muslim claim but it really has no veracity. The Church does not rely on translations but on scholarship to determine the meaning of Scripture. We recognize that there are always errors in translation but that there is still empirical truth which is contained within the teaching authority of the Church. We recognize St. Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

(Steve) In Matthew 5:7 and around that general area, Jesus said that the Torah is still valid and said anyone teaching contrary to this is the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.


(Mat 5:17) Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(Mat 5:18) For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

(Mat 5:19) He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 5:20) For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Steve) Paul taught against the Law, he also was very sexist and even he himself had strict monotheistic views.

(Cristoiglesia) No, you misunderstand St. Paul’s teaching. It was not against the law but he observed the fact that man was incapable, both Jew and gentile, on his own to follow the law to salvation. St. Paul emphasized the importance of God’s grace in man’s endurance in God’s will. He taught that grace was freely given based on ones faith and obedience.

I do not believe St. Paul to be sexist but instead believed that men and women had different roles to fulfill in the Church in building up the faith of the community or family of God. The Church has always been monotheistic believing in one God of the Trinity and St. Paul echoed this view.

(Steve) Baptism shouldn't be required especially for babies, this is pointless since the babies have not sinned yet and this was done to purify,

(Cristoiglesia) Babies do not have actual sin but are born with original sin inherited from our original ancestors who brought death into the world by sin and disobedience.

The Church from the beginning has practiced the Baptism of children. The reasons are very clear in Scriptures.

(Joh 3:5 DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

To the first Christians that baptized their children it was understood by them that Baptism is the doorway to salvation. St. Peter said the following:

(1Pe 3:18 DRB) Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

(1Pe 3:19 DRB) In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

(1Pe 3:20 DRB) Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

(1Pe 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The effects of Baptism are the regeneration of the soul (born again), eradication of original sin and actual sin and its effects on the soul. A baby does not have actual sin but does have original sin. Through Baptism we become members of the Body of Christ, of which St. Paul says the following:

(2Co 5:17 DRB) If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.

(1Co 3:16 DRB) Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Baptism is the sacramental doorway into the Church:

(Mat 28:19 DRB) Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

The Bible teaches that everyone should be Baptized:

(Act 2:38 DRB) But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Act 2:39 DRB) For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.

(Act 2:40 DRB) And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.

(Act 2:41 DRB) They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.

(Act 2:42 DRB) And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.

St. Peter at Pentecost said to the adults to repent but did not exclude children from Baptism, instead saying that everyone should receive the Holy Spirit not just those of age to repent. He said it is “to you and to your children”. That is why people in the early Church brought even their smallest children to be baptized as do parents today.

There is no necessity to repent for children to be Baptized according to Scriptures. The command to repent is not binding on infants nor to mentally incapacitated people as the intent of repentance is not to exclude those incapable of such an act. They are not to be condemned because of their lack of ability to repent. Certainly the same understanding should apply as we understand St. Paul’s statement in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 where St. Paul says that someone who does not work does not eat. Are we to deny children or the mentally handicapped sustenance? Certainly they should not, nor should they be denied eternal life.

The Old Testament required circumcision at eight days old as a sign of the covenant of God. The child had no knowledge of why he was being circumcised yet the parents brought the son to the synagogue to have this done. God accepted the child into the covenant for what the parents had done just as He accepts the Baptism when the parents present their child to be baptized. The Scriptures tell us clearly that Baptism replaced circumcision:

(Col 2:11 DRB) In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ.

(Col 2:12 DRB) Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.

We must remember what Christ said when there were those who attempted to forbid the children from coming to Him:

(Luk 18:15 DRB) And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them.

Luk 18:16 DRB) But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

(Luk 18:17 DRB) Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child shall not enter into it.

Can there be any doubt by a proper understanding of Scripture that children should be baptized? Certainly a complete understanding of the Scriptural verses shows clearly that children have the same need for Baptism as adults and that they should not be held away from this act by their parents or the Church lest they put the child in grave danger and the parents and/or Church are disobedient to the spirit of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

(Steve) child abuse. Molestation is done by the clergy and is encouraged with forced celibacy for clergy. A practice not endorsed in the Bible.

(Cristoiglesia) There is no forced celibacy in the Catholic Church. Some priests swear a vow of celibacy voluntarily. Celibacy is an honored state from the beginning of the Church with both St. Paul endorsing it by word and deed as well as Jesus:

(1Co 7:6) But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment.

(1Co 7:7) For I would that all men were even as myself. But every one hath his proper gift from God: one after this manner, and another after that.

(1Co 7:8) But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I.

(1Co 7:9) But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.

(1Co 7:32) But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God.

(1Co 7:33) But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided.

(1Co 7:34) And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband.

(1Co 7:35) And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment.


(Mat 19:11) Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given.

(Mat 19:12) For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

So, some are encouraged to by God’s grace to be celibate but the Church does not forbid anyone to marry but to follow the example of St. Paul and Jesus. How can this be an encouragement to child abuse to be in a celibate state. If it was an encouragement it would seem that such abuse would be more common among clergy who are celibate but the truth is that is is a much rarer occurrence. Among married clergy in the Protestant faiths child abuse is many times more common. In fact, child abuse is less common among Catholic clergy than any other clergy . As you can see the practice of celibacy is endorsed in the Bible by St. Paul and by Jesus in word and example. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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